15th century Linen doublet sources

Moderator: Moderators

Laffin Jon Terris
Posts: 199
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:32 am
Contact:

Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Post by Laffin Jon Terris »

Another interesting thread, I can see I've got more sewing to do :roll:

I have to ask though,
Grymm wrote: It was a line from that book that made me ask the question, I quote,"It is noteworthy that woollen cloth was never issued to make doublets."
Just because a cloth was never issued to make doublets, doesn't necessarily mean it was never used to make them does it?
Knowing is only half the battle.
Image

User avatar
Colin Middleton
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2037
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:31 pm
Location: Sheffield
Contact:

Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Post by Colin Middleton »

Laffin Jon Terris wrote:Just because a cloth was never issued to make doublets, doesn't necessarily mean it was never used to make them does it?
No, but it does sugest that it was a strange thing to do.
Colin

"May 'Blood, blood, blood' be your motto!"

Image

User avatar
Tod
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2884
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:25 am
Location: A small part of Scotland hidden in middle England
Contact:

Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Post by Tod »

Isn't that the "if they'd had it they would have used it" argument? :lol:

User avatar
steven pole
Post Centurion
Posts: 509
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 2:40 pm
Contact:

Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Post by steven pole »

So everyone who wears a wool doublet is wrong then and we should all be wearing linen?

User avatar
Tod
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2884
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:25 am
Location: A small part of Scotland hidden in middle England
Contact:

Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Post by Tod »

I think its a case of may have done rather than would have done and if they did it would have been finer wool. It makes me think of the sleeved waistcoat worn in later centuries, which was worn with a top coat.

User avatar
steven pole
Post Centurion
Posts: 509
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 2:40 pm
Contact:

Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Post by steven pole »

I'd like a linen doublet making for me. Cooler in warm weather.

User avatar
Colin Middleton
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2037
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:31 pm
Location: Sheffield
Contact:

Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Post by Colin Middleton »

Thinking about it, I suspect that woolen cloth would make for a pretty poor doublet. The favoured fabrics (linnen, worsted and fustian) are all known for their strength and hard-wearing qualities. Woolens aren't. Instead they're known for their warmth, making them much more suitable for coats than for structured garments like doublets. Kind of like the way that we use cotton, not mowhair for socks! :crazy:

I'd be more concerned about how the doublet is made than the fabric used.
Colin

"May 'Blood, blood, blood' be your motto!"

Image

Langley
Post Centurion
Posts: 763
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2008 1:36 pm
Location: West Midlands

Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Post by Langley »

I have a sleeveless linen doublet which I wear under a jack when armoured and under a woolen doublet and with a cote over the top of that when it is cooler. Great for shooting in warmer weather without hose falling down. This is based on the original research Jackie Bowden did for the White Company Handbook. I will see if the reference is in the handbook (Lady L has a copy plus all Jackie's later additions which made it end up as looseleaf binder) or try to contact her and ask if she recalls the details.
Attachments
ACTSchool4.jpg

User avatar
Fox
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2652
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:27 pm
Location: Cheshire

Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Post by Fox »

Langley wrote:I have a sleeveless linen doublet which I wear under a jack when armoured and under a woolen doublet and with a cote over the top of that when it is cooler. Great for shooting in warmer weather without hose falling down. This is based on the original research Jackie Bowden did for the White Company Handbook. I will see if the reference is in the handbook (Lady L has a copy plus all Jackie's later additions which made it end up as looseleaf binder) or try to contact her and ask if she recalls the details.
Do you have provenance for that garment, except under armour and without a shirt?
And, in a more general context, for sleeveless doublets prior to early Tudor?

It's a genuine question, because I have retired my old sleeveless doublet as, as far as I can tell, a re-enactorism.
But it was jolly convienient, and it might be nice to have it back.

guthrie
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2349
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:54 pm
Location: Polmont-Edinburgh

Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Post by guthrie »

See previous threads on this issue, but there was an Italian picture of around 1490 showing a labourer in a field with a sleeveless thing attached to his hose. Whether that means you can wear it in England in the 1470's I'll leave to you all to discuss...

User avatar
Fox
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2652
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:27 pm
Location: Cheshire

Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Post by Fox »

guthrie wrote:See previous threads on this issue, but there was an Italian picture of around 1490 showing a labourer in a field with a sleeveless thing attached to his hose. Whether that means you can wear it in England in the 1470's I'll leave to you all to discuss...
I believe there are similar images for approximately that date for this end of Europe. And people start wearing coifs again.
But it doesn't do me any good; I might as well start wearing my bellows visor helmet at Tewkesbury.

User avatar
Dave B
Post Knight
Posts: 1737
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2005 9:34 pm
Location: Cheshire
Contact:

Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Post by Dave B »

Here's one of the previous threads in question, worth a re-read perhaps:

forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=17207
Find time in every day to look at your life and say; 'Well, it could be worse'

Kurt's uncle Bob.

User avatar
Fox
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2652
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:27 pm
Location: Cheshire

Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Post by Fox »

I recall it, Dave.

I don't think it goes beyond what's on this thread, does it?

User avatar
Dave B
Post Knight
Posts: 1737
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2005 9:34 pm
Location: Cheshire
Contact:

Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Post by Dave B »

No, except it does have the links for the various pictures.

I'm still leaving my sleeveless in the retirement box. I fancy a linen doublet, but I'm not sure what sort of linen.
Find time in every day to look at your life and say; 'Well, it could be worse'

Kurt's uncle Bob.

guthrie
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2349
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:54 pm
Location: Polmont-Edinburgh

Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Post by guthrie »

Haha! You're all evolving into thread counting authenti-nazi's!


(well except for the fascist bit)

User avatar
Fox
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2652
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:27 pm
Location: Cheshire

Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Post by Fox »

Well there was this thread, and the thread Dave posted a link to, and I think there was one other lost in the mists of time.

That Nazi enough for you?

Langley
Post Centurion
Posts: 763
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2008 1:36 pm
Location: West Midlands

Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Post by Langley »

Need to get Lady L to dig out her WC Handbook. IIRC Jackie did have illustrations for sleeveless doublets. I know her research was some time ago but have never been able to catch her out on anything!

User avatar
Fox
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2652
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:27 pm
Location: Cheshire

Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Post by Fox »

Langley wrote:IIRC Jackie did have illustrations for sleeveless doublets.
We've all got those; there are loads on the thread Dave linked to.
They are incorrect in either time, or geography; usually both.

But if you can show something Jackie Bowden found for WotR England, we'd all be very grateful, I think.
[Oh, for a sleeveless doublet again]

User avatar
Dave B
Post Knight
Posts: 1737
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2005 9:34 pm
Location: Cheshire
Contact:

Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Post by Dave B »

guthrie wrote:Haha! You're all evolving into thread counting authenti-nazi's!


(well except for the fascist bit)
Indeed. Fascism implies authoritainism. I don't expect people to conform to my ideas of what is right and wrong, although I may be tempted to poke fun if they are very wrong.
Find time in every day to look at your life and say; 'Well, it could be worse'

Kurt's uncle Bob.

guthrie
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2349
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:54 pm
Location: Polmont-Edinburgh

Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Post by guthrie »

steven pole wrote:So everyone who wears a wool doublet is wrong then and we should all be wearing linen?
If you mean wool as in made of wool, then no, I was reading one of teh Company of St George newsletters and they mention the Pastons asking for worsted for doublets. Worsted cloth is made using combed fleece which is twisted tightly, thus it is quite thin and strong.
The confusion people are having is down to the term 'woollen' in a cloth studies context being different from 'woollen' in a man in the street definition. The former meaning 'fluffy and usually ready to be fulled and so on', whereas the latter means 'made using sheeps wool'.

User avatar
Jim Smith
Posts: 427
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:23 pm
Location: Stoke on Trent
Contact:

Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Post by Jim Smith »

guthrie wrote:
steven pole wrote:So everyone who wears a wool doublet is wrong then and we should all be wearing linen?
If you mean wool as in made of wool, then no, I was reading one of teh Company of St George newsletters and they mention the Pastons asking for worsted for doublets. Worsted cloth is made using combed fleece which is twisted tightly, thus it is quite thin and strong.
The confusion people are having is down to the term 'woollen' in a cloth studies context being different from 'woollen' in a man in the street definition. The former meaning 'fluffy and usually ready to be fulled and so on', whereas the latter means 'made using sheeps wool'.
Is that no you shouldn't or no it's OK?

I must admit that I have a new wool cloth doublet made with some excellent thin woollen cloth and lined with linen, so I had to supress a rather resigned sigh when I first read through this thread. I'm keen to weed out the blatantly wrong and the re-enactorism, but would resist wholesale change based on one or two examples from mainland Europe for instance. Is it not likely that woolen cloth, fustian and linen were used relatively interchangably?
"I hold it to be of great prudence for men to abstain from threats and
insulting words towards any one, for neither the one nor the other in any
way diminishes the strength of the enemy." Niccolo Machiavelli

User avatar
Fox
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2652
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:27 pm
Location: Cheshire

Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Post by Fox »

Yes, Jim.

Woolen doublets are fine; a good light-weight wool is certainly appropriate.

guthrie
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2349
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:54 pm
Location: Polmont-Edinburgh

Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Post by guthrie »

Jim Smith wrote:
guthrie wrote:
steven pole wrote:So everyone who wears a wool doublet is wrong then and we should all be wearing linen?
If you mean wool as in made of wool, then no, I was reading one of teh Company of St George newsletters and they mention the Pastons asking for worsted for doublets. Worsted cloth is made using combed fleece which is twisted tightly, thus it is quite thin and strong.
The confusion people are having is down to the term 'woollen' in a cloth studies context being different from 'woollen' in a man in the street definition. The former meaning 'fluffy and usually ready to be fulled and so on', whereas the latter means 'made using sheeps wool'.
Is that no you shouldn't or no it's OK?

I must admit that I have a new wool cloth doublet made with some excellent thin woollen cloth and lined with linen, so I had to supress a rather resigned sigh when I first read through this thread. I'm keen to weed out the blatantly wrong and the re-enactorism, but would resist wholesale change based on one or two examples from mainland Europe for instance. Is it not likely that woolen cloth, fustian and linen were used relatively interchangably?
Wait, which definition of woollen are you using?
Because you can use cloth made of wool for doublets in the 15th century, by what I have read. The point is that if you want to be really picky you should make it out of worsted or similar, not the thicker fluffy cloth that you often see, but really it isn't that much of a deal breaker compared to people wandering about with belts from teh wrong century or no hat or whatever.

User avatar
Colin Middleton
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2037
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:31 pm
Location: Sheffield
Contact:

Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Post by Colin Middleton »

Fox wrote:Yes, Jim.

Woolen doublets are fine; a good light-weight wool is certainly appropriate.
On what basis please?
Colin

"May 'Blood, blood, blood' be your motto!"

Image

User avatar
Colin Middleton
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2037
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:31 pm
Location: Sheffield
Contact:

Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Post by Colin Middleton »

Jim Smith wrote:I must admit that I have a new wool cloth doublet made with some excellent thin woollen cloth and lined with linen, so I had to supress a rather resigned sigh when I first read through this thread. I'm keen to weed out the blatantly wrong and the re-enactorism, but would resist wholesale change based on one or two examples from mainland Europe for instance. Is it not likely that woolen cloth, fustian and linen were used relatively interchangably?
I wouldn't even consider ditching a nice woolen doublet, so long as it's working and comfortable to wear. Even IF it is wrong (which appears to be pretty debatable anyway), it's right enough to keep using.
Colin

"May 'Blood, blood, blood' be your motto!"

Image

User avatar
Fox
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2652
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:27 pm
Location: Cheshire

Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Post by Fox »

Colin Middleton wrote:
Fox wrote:Yes, Jim.

Woolen doublets are fine; a good light-weight wool is certainly appropriate.
On what basis please?
On the basis that medieval words (like "worsted") aren't easily wrangled into tight little definitions, that the evidence isn't that conclusive, and that the rules for how garments were constructed weren't set down in a single book that was approved by everyone.

The sort of wool used for doublets would probably have been a light-weight, quality weeve ("worsted"); I don't think there is the evidence to be more specific than that.
But if you have it, as ever, I'd love to expand my knowledge.

User avatar
Sophia
Post Centurion
Posts: 806
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:46 pm
Location: Camberwell, London
Contact:

Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Post by Sophia »

OED Definition which gives an idea of the usage at different periods below. I will try look at the Stuart Press pamphlets and a couple of other books for usage statistics later. The advantage of worsted cloth is that the combing aligns the long-staple wool fibers much better than carding, the thread has a higher twist on it and these both mean that you produce a finer cloth without losing durability. A friend has been a Kempster in the woolshed at Kentwell using traditional English wool combs (completely different from the viking type with much longer teeth) and the difference in the prepared wools are very marked even before they are spun. The leftover can be carded to produce a second grade wool.

worsted, n.

Pronunciation: /ˈwʊstɪd/
Forms: α. ME worth-, ME wurthstede, worthested(e, wortestede; ME wr-, ME wurstede, 15 wursteede, ME–15 wursted (ME wurstet); ME wirsted, 15 wyrsted, ME werstede; ME–15 worstede (ME wore-), ME– worsted (ME worseted, 15 worstedd, worstyd; ME worstet, 15 worstett; 15 vorsted), ME worsteyd, 15 worsteid; 15–17 worstead; 15 woorstred, 16 woorsted, woorstead. β. ME–15 wolsted(e, 15 wullstid, ulsted, 16 wolsteed, 15, 17 woolsted. γ. ME–15 wusted, ME–16 wosted, 15–17 woosted. δ. Sc. and north. dial.ME, 15–16, 18 worset, ME, 15–16 worsett, 16 worssett; ME–15 worsat, 15 worsatt, worsait, 18 wurset, wursit, wossat, wusset; ME wirset, ME wirssat, 15 wirsait; ME wersed.(Show Less)
Etymology: < the name of a parish in Norfolk, north of Norwich, originally (Old English) Wurðestede, later Wurthstede, Worthsted, etc., and now written Worstead.(Show Less)

†1. (Anglo-Latin) pannus, (Anglo-Norman) drap, de Wurthstede, etc.: = sense 2. Obs.

1296 Close Roll, 24 Edw. I 24 Apr. (P.R.O.: C 54/113) m. 9v, Pannum de Worthstede.
1301 Let. Pat. 4 Oct. in Northampton Bor. Rec. (1898) I. 59 De quolibet panno de wurthstede qui vocatur coverlit.
1328 Rolls of Parl. II. 28/1 Ses poueres..Overours des Draps de Wurthstede en le Counte de Norff.
1347 Rolls of Parl. II. 168/2 Pur Draps de Worstede une novelle Custume levee.
1350 in J. T. Fowler Extracts Acct. Rolls Abbey of Durham (1898) I. 173 In 11 pannis de nigro worseto.
1402–3 in J. T. Fowler Extracts Acct. Rolls Abbey of Durham (1898) I. 182 In tribus pannis de wirsted.
1442–3 in J. T. Fowler Extracts Acct. Rolls Abbey of Durham (1898) I. 185 In 1 panno nigro de worestede.

2.
a. A woollen fabric or stuff made from well-twisted yarn spun of long-staple wool combed to lay the fibres parallel.

α.
1293 in Camden Misc. II. 13 Pro xj. ulnis de wrstede ad caligas faciendas.
1345–9 in Archaeologia XXXI. 78 Eidem ad vnam aulam de worstede operatum cum papagailles.
1393–4 Act 17 Rich II c. 2 Les Marchants & overours de draps appelez sengle Worstede.
c1405 (1387–95) Chaucer Canterbury Tales Prol. (Hengwrt) (2003) l. 264 Of double worstede was his semycope.
1411 in F. J. Furnivall Fifty Earliest Eng. Wills (1882) 19 Also y be-queythe to Robert, myn heldest son, a reed bedde of worsteyd.
1459 Paston Lett. I. 478 Item, j pece of grene wurstet xxx yards longe.
1465 Paston Lett. & Papers (1904) IV. 201 A coverlyte of whyte werstede longyng therto.
1535 Wardrobe Acct. Henry VIII in Archaeologia (1789) 9 249 A dubblette of wursteede.
1548 Hall's Vnion: Henry VIII f. lxiv, Within hys gate..dwelled dyuerse Frenchmen that kalendred Worsted, contrary to the kynges lawes.
1610 P. Holland tr. W. Camden Brit. i. 475 They obteined..that the Worsted made there [i.e. at Norwich] might be transported.
a1661 T. Fuller Worthies (1662) Norf. 247 It surpasseth my skill to name the several stuffs (being Worsted disguised with Weaving and Colouring) made thereof.
1728 Pope Dunciad ii. 129 The very worstead still look'd black and blue.
a1756 E. Haywood New Present (1771) 258 Directions for cleaning of Worsted and other Sorts of Stuffs.
1886 S. W. Beck Draper's Dict. 373 Worsted, cloth of long stapled-wool, combed straightly and smoothly, as distinct from woollens, which are woven from short staple wool, crossed and roughed in spinning.

β.
1436 in W. H. Stevenson Rec. Borough Nottingham (1883) II. 152 Unum cowle de nigro wolstede.
1551–2 Act 5 & 6 Edw. VI c. 7 §1 Any kynde of Clothe Chamlettes Wolstede Sayes [etc.].
1598 J. Stow Suruay of London 76 His guarde..all in a Liuery of Wolsted.

γ.
1440 in E. Peacock Eng. Church Furnit. (1866) 182 A vestment of Black wosted.
1481–90 Howard Househ. Bks. (Roxb.) 38 A piece wusted iij. yerdes deppe, for stremers and standartes.
1537 in J. L. Glasscock Rec. St. Michael's, Bishop's Stortford (1882) 126 Item a vestment of grene wusted wt an obe.
1589 Voy. W. Towrson in R. Hakluyt Princ. Navigations i. 108 They shewed vs a certaine course cloth,..it was course wooll, and a small threed, and as thicke as wosted.
1607 R. C. tr. H. Estienne World of Wonders 235 Sleeues.., one halfe of woosted, the other of veluet.

δ. 1350 [see sense 1].
1375 Exch. Rolls Scot. II. 505 Per empcionem de xij ulnis cum dimidio de wirset.
1436 in C. Innes Reg. Episcopatus Aberdonensis (1845) II. 148 Vnum vestimentum integrum de nigro wersed.
1483 in T. Thomson Acts Lords Auditors (1839) *112/1 A couering of Inglis worsat.
1520–1 in J. Raine Fabric Rolls York Minster (1859) 305 One vestment of blacke worsett.
1565 in Hay Fleming Reform. Scot. (1910) 610 Ane baithkyt[sic] of roich worsat, to ly under nobillis feit.
1612 Sc. Bk. Rates in Halyburton's Ledger (1867) 289 Beltis..of worsett the groce, viij li.

b. With pl. A particular variety of this fabric.

1314–5 Rolls of Parl. I. 292/2 Draps qe homme appele Worthstedes & Aylehames.
1348 in T. Rymer Fœdera (1708) V. 618 Stapula..aliorum Pannorum de Worstedes.
1393 Pat. Roll 16 Rich. II ii. 28 Feb., Pro mercatoribus et operatoribus de worstedes.
1442 Rolls of Parl. V. 60/2 Persones that maken untrewe ware of all maner Worstedes.
1471 J. Paston in Paston Lett. & Papers (2004) I. 440 A worsted man off Norffolk þat solde worstedys at Wynchester.
1541–2 Act 33 Hen. VIII c. 16 §2 The makinge and weavinge of worstedes and other clothes.
1573–80 J. Baret Aluearie V 92 As if a man should carrie Mockadoes and woolsteds to be sold at Norwich.
1603 R. Johnson tr. G. Botero Hist. Descr. Worlde 27 They inuented..the making of tapestrie, saies, searges, wosteds, russets.
1853 A. Ure Dict. Arts II. 833 The class of goods technically distinguished as ‘woollens’ in distinction to ‘worsteds.’
1895 Daily News 13 Sept. 5/3 The revival is more apparent in the production of the higher class of goods known as worsteds than in that known as woollens.

c. ellipt. for a garment made of worsted cloth; a worsted jacket or suit.

1962 L. Deighton Ipcress File i. 9, I struggled into the dark worsted and my only establishment tie.
1972 K. Bonfiglioli Don't point that Thing at Me iii. 20, I put on a dashing little tropical-weight worsted, curly-brimmed coker and a pair of buckskins.
1975 Times 8 Jan. 12/7 Behaving in a manner more suited to the canvas jacket than the charcoal-grey worsted.

3. A closely twisted yarn made of long-staple wool in which the fibres are arranged to lie parallel to each other. Later, a fine and soft woollen yarn used for knitting and embroidery (cf. wool n. 3b).

1465 J. Paston in Paston Lett. & Papers (2004) I. 140, I pray yow ye woll send me hedir ij elne of worsted for doblettes to happe me this cold wynter.
1546 Extracts Council Reg. Aberdeen (1844) I. 236 Ane grit buyst, and certane kemmis, worsettis, spectikyllis, and wther small geir in it.
1612 Sc. Bk. Rates in Halyburton's Ledger (1867) 296 Sewing worssett.
1687 A. Lovell tr. J. de Thévenot Trav. into Levant i. 143 Their loom stands before them, and in their left hand they have several ends of round bottoms of Woorstead of many colours, which they place in their several places.
1709 in Philos. Trans. 1713 (Royal Soc.) (1714) 28 265 She being a Spinner of Yarn or Woosted.
a1745 Swift Story Injured Lady (1746) 7 If a Tenant carried but..an Inch of Worsted to mend his Stockings, he should forfeit his whole Parcel.
1784 A. Smith Inq. Wealth of Nations (ed. 3) II. iv. viii. 507 Woollen yarn and worsted are prohibited to be exported under the same penalties as wool.
1842 R. H. Barham Nell Cook!! in Ingoldsby Legends 2nd Ser. 121 Mrs. John Ingoldsby at the table, busily employed in manufacturing a cabbage-rose..in many-coloured worsteds.
1843 R. S. Surtees Handley Cross III. iv. 63 The young ones sought out their worsteds to work her a bag apiece.
1889 Hardwicke's Sci.-gossip 25 134 The syphon, which may consist of a single thread of wool or worsted.

4. attrib. or adj. Made of worsted or worsted yarn; said of cloth, thread, garments, etc.; also in specific names of fabrics or materials, as worsted braid, worsted damask, etc.

1410 Rolls of Parl. III. 637/2 Les Worstedes appelez Worsted-beddes, doubles, & sengles.
1492 in T. Dickson Accts. Treasurer Scotl. (1877) I. 202 For ij dowbil wirssat beltis til him, price iij s.
1502 in J. B. Paul Accts. Treasurer Scotl. (1900) II. 198 For iiij elne worsait ribane to cord the said goune.
1533 in J. W. Clay Testamenta Eboracensia (1902) VI. 43 A wolsted dublet.
1566 in E. Peacock Eng. Church Furnit. (1866) 67 Item iij worsted copes.
1589 R. Greene Menaphon sig. I, Spangled like the woosted stockings of Saturne.
1605 P. Erondelle French Garden D 8 b, I will haue no woorsted hosen.
1647 R. Herrick Widdowes Teares in Noble Numbers 43 The woosted thred Is cut, that made us clothing.
1720 T. Gordon Humourist I. 45 Renouncing his Buckles and conforming to Woolsted-Tapes.
1748 T. Smollett Roderick Random I. xvii. 139 His white silk stockings were converted into black worsted hose.
1828 Scott Fair Maid of Perth vi, in Chron. Canongate 2nd Ser. I, The thumb of his mother's worsted glove might hold the treasure of the whole clan.
1843 Penny Cycl. XXVII. 555/2 Worsted shag [is made] at Banbury and Coventry.
1858 E. Bulwer-Lytton What will he do with It? i. vi, Two small worsted rugs.
1878 M. E. Braddon Eleanor's Vict. ii, Voluminous worsted curtains falling before the narrow windows.
1882 S. F. A. Caulfeild & B. C. Saward Dict. Needlework 524 Worsted Braids...Worsted Damasks.
Comb.
1768 Ann. Reg. 1767 158 The looms of a worsted-lace-weaver.

Compounds

C1. Simple attrib. and adjective comb.

worsted-breaker n.

1835 A. Ure Philos. Manuf. 217 These two endless chains pass over fluted guide-rollers (like those more obviously seen in the worsted-breaker).

worsted-comber n.

1702 in P. Wright New Bk. Martyrs (1784) 808/1 William Hussey, a worsted comber.

worsted-dealer n.

1830 Parson & White Directory Leeds etc. 426 Worsted Dealers.

worsted-factory n.

1843 Penny Cycl. XXVII. 554/1 A worsted factory in the north.

worsted machinery n.

1875 E. H. Knight Pract. Dict. Mech. 2819 Worsted machinery.

worsted-maker n.

a1538 T. Starkey Dial. Pole & Lupset (1989) 64 Weverys worstyd makyrs tukkarys & fullarys.

worsted-making n.

1534 Act 26 Hen. VIII c. 16 §5 The said mysterie and occupacion of Worsted makinge.

worsted-manufacture n.

1805 J. Luccock Nature & Prop. Wool 156 The state of the worsted manufacture.

worsted-manufacturer n.

1736 in Rec. Convent. Royal Burghs Scot. (1885) V. 604 The case of the silk and worset manufacturers.
1801 T. Peck Norwich Direct. 11 Crowe William, Worsted-Manufacturer.

worsted merchant n.

?c1480 E. Paston in Paston Lett. & Papers (2004) I. 639 On Boolt, a worstede [No space between a and worstede in MS] marchaunt.
1880 G. Smith Cowper vii. 100 The letter slides from spiritual despair to the worsted-merchant.
worsted mill n.

1836 W. White Hist. Norfolk 96 Two worsted mills at Norwich.
worsted repository n.

1858 P. L. Simmonds Dict. Trade Products, Worsted-repository,..a shop where fancy knitting-wools are sold.

† worsted-shearing n. Obs.

1503–4 Act 19 Hen. VII c. 17 §1 The Worsted Sheremen wythin the seid Citie..have chosen Wardens of Worsted sheryng.

† worsted shearman n. Obs.

worsted-spinner n.

1830 Parson & White Directory Leeds 171 Worsted spinners.

worsted-spinning n.

1895 Daily News 21 June 2/2 The worsted-spinning business of Henry Pease and Company.

worsted-throwster n.

1716 London Gaz. No. 5401/4, A Worsted-Throwster by Trade.

worsted trade n.

1835 A. Ure Philos. Manuf. 68 The worsted trade of England.

worsted-weaver n.

1442 Rolls of Parl. V. 60/2 The craft of Worsted Wevers.
1707 London Gaz. No. 4319/4, George Durant, of the City of Norwich, Worsted-Weaver.

worsted-weaving n.

C2.

worsted work n. embroidery done with worsted yarn on canvas; an example of this.

c1702 C. Fiennes Journeys (1947) 277 One with a half bedstead as the new mode, dimity with fine shades of worsted works well made up.
1826 M. Wilmot Let. 25 Sept. (1935) 250, I do worsted work..but..my eyes are too weak to count the threads of any but coarse canvas... What do you make of yours? Foot stools! cushions! bell pulls!
1888 Mrs. H. Ward Robert Elsmere I. i. x. 280 His wife, whose head was bent close over her worsted work.

worsted-worked adj.

1853 E. C. Gaskell Cranford viii. 116 Carlo lay on the worsted-worked rug.

worsted, n.
Second edition, 1989; online version June 2012. <http://www.oed.com.libezproxy.open.ac.u ... try/230367>; accessed 01 August 2012. Earlier version first published in New English Dictionary, 1928.
aka Thomasin Chedzoy, Tailor at Kentwell Hall

User avatar
Colin Middleton
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2037
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:31 pm
Location: Sheffield
Contact:

Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Post by Colin Middleton »

Fox wrote: On the basis that medieval words (like "worsted") aren't easily wrangled into tight little definitions, that the evidence isn't that conclusive, and that the rules for how garments were constructed weren't set down in a single book that was approved by everyone.

The sort of wool used for doublets would probably have been a light-weight, quality weave ("worsted"); I don't think there is the evidence to be more specific than that.
But if you have it, as ever, I'd love to expand my knowledge.
Unfortunately I don't have any other evidence to offer, sorry. I was hoping that you'd offer some. :$

Most of my knowledge in this area is based on others' research and notes.
Colin

"May 'Blood, blood, blood' be your motto!"

Image

User avatar
Fox
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2652
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:27 pm
Location: Cheshire

Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Post by Fox »

Colin Middleton wrote:Most of my knowledge in this area is based on others' research and notes.
I think we all see further because we stand on the shoulders of giants.

So to expand on my point, historically words don't have very precise meanings.
Specifically relating to cloth:
Cotton is generally believed to refer to both "real" cotton, but also some woolen clothes with a cotton-like finish.

Camlet was mentioned earlier, and this might refer "genuine" eastern camlet, but also european woolen fabrics with a similar nap and feel. (Interestingly camlet is also essentially a light weight, hard wearing wool)

In the same way, worsted isn't likely to be a single very specific type of fabric, but a collective word for light weight, hard wearing wools.

So when Jim says he has a doublet made of "excellent thin woollen cloth", I would say, what do you think worsted is?
Hence why I say it is appropriate.

Laffin Jon Terris
Posts: 199
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:32 am
Contact:

Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Post by Laffin Jon Terris »

Colin Middleton wrote:
Laffin Jon Terris wrote:Just because a cloth was never issued to make doublets, doesn't necessarily mean it was never used to make them does it?
No, but it does sugest that it was a strange thing to do.
I don't see it.

A cloth not being issued to make doublets just means they weren't made from livery issued wool doesn't it?

What about tailors and cloth merchants selling wool and woolen doublets not made from "issued" wool?
Knowing is only half the battle.
Image

Post Reply