Of Brigandines and mail sleeves......WOTR-ish

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
steve stanley
Post Knight
Posts: 1122
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2005 6:07 pm
Location: Leicester

Of Brigandines and mail sleeves......WOTR-ish

Postby steve stanley » Tue Oct 05, 2010 10:50 pm

Question time.......
Seeing pictures of these,I can't work out a number of options........
A) It's a mail shirt.....But would it be worn over a jack,an arming doublet or a normal doublet
B) They're separate sleeves,which,as I understand it,means there's an arming doublet involved for them to be tied to...........

In either case,would a jacket then be worn over the armour?.....And would the guy carry an ordinary doublet around with him for when he's off duty?

Steve(who isn't converting,but gets nuts-and-bolts niggles sometimes...)


"Give me a tent and a kettle
Snowshoes and axe and gun
Send me up in Grand River
Steering by star and sun".
- Labrador Trapper's Song

Nigel
Post Knight
Posts: 1676
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 7:45 am
Location: Pontefract
Contact:

Re: Of Brigandines and mail sleeves......WOTR-ish

Postby Nigel » Wed Oct 06, 2010 8:29 am

steve stanley wrote:Question time.......
Seeing pictures of these,I can't work out a number of options........
A) It's a mail shirt.....But would it be worn over a jack,an arming doublet or a normal doublet
B) They're separate sleeves,which,as I understand it,means there's an arming doublet involved for them to be tied to...........

In either case,would a jacket then be worn over the armour?.....And would the guy carry an ordinary doublet around with him for when he's off duty?

Steve(who isn't converting,but gets nuts-and-bolts niggles sometimes...)



Lot depends on individuals if seperates then deffiantely attached to an AD either pointed or sewn on

If a maille shirt then usually worn over a AD under a jack

I think that a doublet would be worn under all this a coat however is another story


There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

User avatar
steve stanley
Post Knight
Posts: 1122
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2005 6:07 pm
Location: Leicester

Re: Of Brigandines and mail sleeves......WOTR-ish

Postby steve stanley » Wed Oct 06, 2010 10:36 am

So an arming doublet can't hold the hose up?....'Cos if it can,an ordinary doublet as well seems overkill?(and a bit warm...)
Steve(who must stop reading 15thcent fiction...)


"Give me a tent and a kettle

Snowshoes and axe and gun

Send me up in Grand River

Steering by star and sun".

- Labrador Trapper's Song

Nigel
Post Knight
Posts: 1676
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 7:45 am
Location: Pontefract
Contact:

Re: Of Brigandines and mail sleeves......WOTR-ish

Postby Nigel » Wed Oct 06, 2010 12:00 pm

steve stanley wrote:So an arming doublet can't hold the hose up?....'Cos if it can,an ordinary doublet as well seems overkill?(and a bit warm...)
Steve(who must stop reading 15thcent fiction...)


it could BUT you would probably ahve your hose pointed to a sleeveless doublet which would be of linen so not that toasty

what you reading ?


There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

User avatar
steve stanley
Post Knight
Posts: 1122
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2005 6:07 pm
Location: Leicester

Re: Of Brigandines and mail sleeves......WOTR-ish

Postby steve stanley » Wed Oct 06, 2010 12:23 pm

'Vlad' by C C Humphreys(who writes the Jack Absolute ones).....Historical novel of Mr.Tepes & his pointy sticks.....


"Give me a tent and a kettle

Snowshoes and axe and gun

Send me up in Grand River

Steering by star and sun".

- Labrador Trapper's Song

Nigel
Post Knight
Posts: 1676
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 7:45 am
Location: Pontefract
Contact:

Re: Of Brigandines and mail sleeves......WOTR-ish

Postby Nigel » Wed Oct 06, 2010 12:40 pm

steve stanley wrote:'Vlad' by C C Humphreys(who writes the Jack Absolute ones).....Historical novel of Mr.Tepes & his pointy sticks.....



enjoyed Jack ones so will give this a look

you read seelowe Nord yet ?


There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

User avatar
steve stanley
Post Knight
Posts: 1122
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2005 6:07 pm
Location: Leicester

Re: Of Brigandines and mail sleeves......WOTR-ish

Postby steve stanley » Wed Oct 06, 2010 12:48 pm

Not yet...Got the new AWI Cornwell lined up next!


"Give me a tent and a kettle

Snowshoes and axe and gun

Send me up in Grand River

Steering by star and sun".

- Labrador Trapper's Song

Nigel
Post Knight
Posts: 1676
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 7:45 am
Location: Pontefract
Contact:

Re: Of Brigandines and mail sleeves......WOTR-ish

Postby Nigel » Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:13 pm

steve stanley wrote:Not yet...Got the new AWI Cornwell lined up next!


is that out yet


There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

User avatar
steve stanley
Post Knight
Posts: 1122
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2005 6:07 pm
Location: Leicester

Re: Of Brigandines and mail sleeves......WOTR-ish

Postby steve stanley » Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:22 pm

Half-price in Smith's and Waterstone's..got it yesterday


"Give me a tent and a kettle

Snowshoes and axe and gun

Send me up in Grand River

Steering by star and sun".

- Labrador Trapper's Song

User avatar
Colin Middleton
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2037
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:31 pm
Location: Sheffield
Contact:

Re: Of Brigandines and mail sleeves......WOTR-ish

Postby Colin Middleton » Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:30 pm

Nigel wrote:would probably ahve your hose pointed to a sleeveless doublet which would be of linen so not that toasty


What makes you think that?


Colin

"May 'Blood, blood, blood' be your motto!"

Image

Nigel
Post Knight
Posts: 1676
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 7:45 am
Location: Pontefract
Contact:

Re: Of Brigandines and mail sleeves......WOTR-ish

Postby Nigel » Thu Oct 07, 2010 1:19 pm

Colin Middleton wrote:
Nigel wrote:would probably ahve your hose pointed to a sleeveless doublet which would be of linen so not that toasty


What makes you think that?


Just a thought because it makes sense AND ITS A LOGICAL THOUGHT PROCESS

So what do you think


There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

Marcus Woodhouse
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 3337
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2006 8:35 pm

Re: Of Brigandines and mail sleeves......WOTR-ish

Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Thu Oct 07, 2010 7:57 pm

I have hose pointed to my arming doublet (could be considered appropriate attire for a man at arms going about a camp according to the Venetian Council of 10) ("Yet may he wear his defense (doublet) at all times ready to don his arms when called to war.") In fact they even talk about govt. issue arming doublets that can be hired marked CllaX
I have read that arming doublets should be worn without a shirt but I'm not as hard a bastard as they were and its too scratchy.
Over that I wear a mail shirt and over that a brig, as long as I remember to make sure the points for my arm harness are pulled through before I try to put i9t on it works fine.


OSTENDE MIHI PECUNIAM!

Langley
Post Centurion
Posts: 763
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2008 1:36 pm
Location: West Midlands

Re: Of Brigandines and mail sleeves......WOTR-ish

Postby Langley » Fri Oct 08, 2010 11:34 am

On the thread talking about sleveless doublets I pointed out that probably for lack of space in print, it was not mentioned in Gerry Embleton's book that the illustrations he used were of men hanged on the battlefield. That seems to be the basis of the (possible) re-enactorism of "pourpoints" or sleveless doublets worn as civilian dress under another doublet or gown. I suspect that they were more likely to be garments used to keep a soldiers hose up and worn under an arming doublet or a jack etc. This comes from the recollections of Lady L who learned her stuff from Jackie Bowden who worked with Gerry I believe and authored much of the WC Handbook. Certainly, I have a sleeveless linen affair which I tend to wear always as I can then slip on my jack etc nice and quick before battle and pull it off afterwards, cool down then re-don my doublet or gown ready to go back to whatever other role I am doing for LH. Only in the hottest of weather and when doing something military like archery or gunning does it ever make a public appearance. When it IS hot it is a real blessing to be able to wear it like that though!



User avatar
Colin Middleton
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2037
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:31 pm
Location: Sheffield
Contact:

Re: Of Brigandines and mail sleeves......WOTR-ish

Postby Colin Middleton » Fri Oct 08, 2010 12:43 pm

I point my hosen to my arming doublet (or will do again, once I sort all the 'bugs' out). It doesn't take long with a little practice to undo and re-tie the points if you want to change the doublet (though I would change the hosen too by preference). I'm aware of the sleeveless doublet that you mention being worn under a jack (in a French ordenance), but not under a doublet. What little evidence I have seen sugests that you don't wear anything more than a shirt (and not necessarily that) under your arming doublet.


Colin

"May 'Blood, blood, blood' be your motto!"

Image

User avatar
Fox
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2652
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:27 pm
Location: Cheshire

Re: Of Brigandines and mail sleeves......WOTR-ish

Postby Fox » Fri Oct 08, 2010 1:51 pm

Do you think there is a clear differential between a jack and doublet?
Or is that just a modern distiniction?



User avatar
steve stanley
Post Knight
Posts: 1122
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2005 6:07 pm
Location: Leicester

Re: Of Brigandines and mail sleeves......WOTR-ish

Postby steve stanley » Fri Oct 08, 2010 7:08 pm

In my mind.....The Jack is the thicker one intended as a defence in it's own right....?????
Steve


"Give me a tent and a kettle

Snowshoes and axe and gun

Send me up in Grand River

Steering by star and sun".

- Labrador Trapper's Song

User avatar
Fox
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2652
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:27 pm
Location: Cheshire

Re: Of Brigandines and mail sleeves......WOTR-ish

Postby Fox » Sat Oct 09, 2010 5:27 am

steve stanley wrote:In my mind.....The Jack is the thicker one intended as a defence in it's own right....?????
Steve

Certainly I would say that's the modern distinction.



Nigel
Post Knight
Posts: 1676
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 7:45 am
Location: Pontefract
Contact:

Re: Of Brigandines and mail sleeves......WOTR-ish

Postby Nigel » Mon Oct 11, 2010 12:02 pm

steve stanley wrote:Half-price in Smith's and Waterstone's..got it yesterday


Ta Steve picked it up


There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

User avatar
Colin Middleton
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2037
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:31 pm
Location: Sheffield
Contact:

Re: Of Brigandines and mail sleeves......WOTR-ish

Postby Colin Middleton » Tue Oct 12, 2010 1:28 pm

Fox wrote:Do you think there is a clear differential between a jack and doublet?
Or is that just a modern distiniction?

I'm pretty certain that John Howard has both jacks and doublets made and pays considerably more for the making of the doublet. I think that the fit and purpose of them is quite different.
Do we have any evidence of jacks being worn under something or doublets over other garments?


Colin

"May 'Blood, blood, blood' be your motto!"

Image

User avatar
Fox
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2652
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:27 pm
Location: Cheshire

Re: Of Brigandines and mail sleeves......WOTR-ish

Postby Fox » Tue Oct 12, 2010 2:27 pm

Colin Middleton wrote:I'm pretty certain that John Howard has both jacks and doublets

How are the doublets described (so as to differentiate them from the common garment of that name)?



User avatar
Colin Middleton
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2037
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:31 pm
Location: Sheffield
Contact:

Re: Of Brigandines and mail sleeves......WOTR-ish

Postby Colin Middleton » Wed Oct 13, 2010 12:37 pm

I think that it was 'doublet de fence'. The jacks are described as 'Scotch Jacks' or 'Welsh Jacks' at different times.


Colin

"May 'Blood, blood, blood' be your motto!"

Image

User avatar
Fox
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2652
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:27 pm
Location: Cheshire

Re: Of Brigandines and mail sleeves......WOTR-ish

Postby Fox » Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:09 pm

Colin Middleton wrote:I think that it was 'doublet de fence'.

Ah.
I was under the impression that 'doublet de fence' was not necessarily what we would call an arming doublet.

Anyone?



User avatar
Zachos
Posts: 424
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 5:34 pm

Re: Of Brigandines and mail sleeves......WOTR-ish

Postby Zachos » Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:24 pm

There weren't any dictionaries, so to be honest, I'm not sure it matters. A doublet of fence suggests something more padded to my mind, but I don't think there are right and wrong ways.

The way I would wear the combination mentioned, is a doublet, followed by a maille skirt and "crop top", with a brigandine over the top. The doublet wouldn't be that thick, simply two or three layers. However, I wouldn't go so far as to say it was the only way they did it, but rather that is one way it might have been done.


Slowly realizing just how far is still to go.

User avatar
Fox
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2652
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:27 pm
Location: Cheshire

Re: Of Brigandines and mail sleeves......WOTR-ish

Postby Fox » Wed Oct 13, 2010 3:19 pm

Zachos wrote:There weren't any dictionaries,

Rather my original point, thus:
Fox wrote:Do you think there is a clear differential between a jack and doublet?
Or is that just a modern distiniction?


Zachos wrote:so to be honest, I'm not sure it matters.

It does if we make the distinction, as Colin appears to, thus:
Colin Middleton wrote:I'm aware of the sleeveless doublet that you mention being worn under a jack (in a French ordenance), but not under a doublet. What little evidence I have seen sugests that you don't wear anything more than a shirt (and not necessarily that) under your arming doublet.



User avatar
Zachos
Posts: 424
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 5:34 pm

Re: Of Brigandines and mail sleeves......WOTR-ish

Postby Zachos » Wed Oct 13, 2010 3:39 pm

Fox wrote:
Zachos wrote:There weren't any dictionaries,

Rather my original point, thus:
Fox wrote:Do you think there is a clear differential between a jack and doublet?
Or is that just a modern distiniction?


Zachos wrote:so to be honest, I'm not sure it matters.

It does if we make the distinction, as Colin appears to, thus:
Colin Middleton wrote:I'm aware of the sleeveless doublet that you mention being worn under a jack (in a French ordenance), but not under a doublet. What little evidence I have seen sugests that you don't wear anything more than a shirt (and not necessarily that) under your arming doublet.


Again, I believe it has changed over time. I believe there are two "how a knight shall be armed" manuscripts, the later one being the one that only mentions one doublet, while there is another that mentions one underneath as well. I can't find the other one, and to be honest I've only heard of it through hearsay, but then we've got to remember that actually these are only how two people suggest it should be done. We have definite evidence that not everyone wore voiders for example, which are mentioned as fact in the "how a man shall be armed" document.

The real issue we have is the lack of evidence for everything arming garment wise, but especially the lower classes. I'm sure some people just wore their normal doublet and cote with whatever else they could afford over the top.


Slowly realizing just how far is still to go.

User avatar
Fox
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2652
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:27 pm
Location: Cheshire

Re: Of Brigandines and mail sleeves......WOTR-ish

Postby Fox » Wed Oct 13, 2010 3:51 pm

I couldn't agree more.

It's nice when we have direct evidence; but what we have is often a very small sample space.
I believe there are hints of evidence pointing to all sorts of variations.



User avatar
steve stanley
Post Knight
Posts: 1122
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2005 6:07 pm
Location: Leicester

Re: Of Brigandines and mail sleeves......WOTR-ish

Postby steve stanley » Wed Oct 13, 2010 4:01 pm

..Which is probably what confused me in the first place.........Just seemed an Awful lot of layers.......


"Give me a tent and a kettle

Snowshoes and axe and gun

Send me up in Grand River

Steering by star and sun".

- Labrador Trapper's Song

User avatar
Zachos
Posts: 424
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 5:34 pm

Re: Of Brigandines and mail sleeves......WOTR-ish

Postby Zachos » Wed Oct 13, 2010 4:53 pm

steve stanley wrote:..Which is probably what confused me in the first place.........Just seemed an Awful lot of layers.......


Well. We're actually really thinking 2 or 3, which isn't a lot. It was colder then, and in certain circumstances you'd want the extra layers.


Slowly realizing just how far is still to go.

User avatar
Fox
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2652
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:27 pm
Location: Cheshire

Re: Of Brigandines and mail sleeves......WOTR-ish

Postby Fox » Wed Oct 13, 2010 4:54 pm

steve stanley wrote:Just seemed an Awful lot of layers.......

Having worn armour for Ludlow Christmas fair I can attest that sometimes there is no such thing as too many layers.
By 9pm on Saturday night I was still bloody cold.

Having worn the same armour for hours on end in the summer heat at Tewkesbury, I wanted it to be as little as possible.

I don't think the distinction between jack and arming doublet is as clear as re-enactors might make it; it's a convinience of modern language, like using the word sallet to refer to only specific types of helms.

I think the amount of padding people wore under armour varied, certainly by local custom, possibley by personal preference and even time of year.
On a similar tack, we know the Italians favoured full mail shirts under plate armour, while elsewhere voiders and partial mail was attached to the garment beneath.
Which neatly goes back to your first post: it could be either a full shirt or just the arms.



User avatar
Colin Middleton
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2037
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:31 pm
Location: Sheffield
Contact:

Re: Of Brigandines and mail sleeves......WOTR-ish

Postby Colin Middleton » Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:42 pm

Fox wrote:
Colin Middleton wrote:I think that it was 'doublet de fence'.

Ah.
I was under the impression that 'doublet de fence' was not necessarily what we would call an arming doublet.

Anyone?


I agree entirely. My expectation is that an arming doublet offers much less protection, which implies that it is even less like a jack, but that's just in my head.

The comparison between the doublet de fence and the welsh jack is most telling that they are made from the same number of layers of fabrics (of similar types, I think), but cost different amounts to make up, in much the same way that doublets are cheaper to make than coats (though the coat usually has more spent on the fabric).

This is why I feel that they are very separate items, possibly more to the Medieval mind, than to ours.

Do we have any kind of evidence for heavily padded garments (like jacks) being worn under plate harness?

Zachos wrote:The way I would wear the combination mentioned, is a doublet, followed by a maille skirt and "crop top", with a brigandine over the top. The doublet wouldn't be that thick, simply two or three layers. However, I wouldn't go so far as to say it was the only way they did it, but rather that is one way it might have been done.

I agree with your asertion about the layers Zachos, but I'm wondering if you've any evidence of the mail "crop top"? I know of gussets (voiders as we call them now), separate sleeves and full shirts, but I've never heard of that 'half shirt' kind of idea. It does seem a natural 'missing link' and I'd love to know more if you have provenance for it.


Colin

"May 'Blood, blood, blood' be your motto!"

Image


Return to “1100-1500”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests