Flodden kit and info please

[Tod]

I thought there was thread here some where but I can't find it.
I'm looking for clothing (soft kit) and armour/arms info for nobles and serving men, also women of the period. Can any point me in the direction of any books with pictures? I know the Scots and English would have been very similar but its the Scottish side I am particularly interested in.
Thanks in advance.
Tod

[guthrie]

I think the Tudor Tailor case study "The King's Servants" should help, although obviously it is English. I've not come across anything specifically Scottish, but I am not a costume expert.

[EwanDoc]

Osprey's 'Scottish Renaissance Army 1513-1550' is a good book with some cracking illustrations by Graham Turner, not hugely detailed in the text but a good overview. The Osprey Flodden book might be worth a look, but I've not read it myself.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Scottish-Renais ... 478&sr=1-6

[Phil the Grips]

There's a neat precis here-
http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_armies_scots.html

The Osprey books are reasonable but not brilliant-best to treat them as a springboard and follow up the sources cited yourself for your own conclusions as usual

[steve stanley]

Lateral stuff....The best Osprey for early 16thC costume is the 'Landesknecht Soldier' one.....Unless you're looking at Highland stuff,I don't think there's anything specifically Scots in costume......OMG,I remember that George Gush article when it first appeared in Airfix magazine.....1970-something!
Steve

[Jenn]

The difficulty is there very little that has been written recently on Scots clothes at this period - In general Lowland Scots tended to follow European fashions. They seem to have leant towards French styles rather than English at this period ( so a bit less square in shape for the men for example Look towards FrancoisI rather than Henry

I also read this on the Tudor Tailor website which may be of interest
"Lucy Capito is researching dress at the Scots court in the early 16th century with a view to another new case study volume in 2010/2011"
Otherwise I shall have a trawl through my articles etc and get back to you. I do have more info obviously

[Tod]

I've got info on 16th century Highlanders, although how many were there is questionable.
Its ALL the other stuff you mention I look forward to what ever you can tell me.

[Andy R]

I've got info on 16th century Highlanders, although how many were there is questionable.

Using Osprey as a source (The Border Reivers - not a good start to begin with, buy it does have prety pictures) they were there and ridden down by the Bastard Heron when he rode to the rescue of Sir Edmund Howard with hsi border horse.

But as ever in the Scots armies of the time, they were the weak point in the army as likely to nick offski as avoid fighting to attack the baggage, and a very small percentage of the national army

[Tod]

I got the Osprey book on Flodden and have to say the pictures are perhaps the worst I have ever seen in any Osprey book. From the info I do have the kit is a laugh and the evidence must have come from a complete wang fest. Body warmer jacks worn over shirts. Armoured nobels but with no helmets or gauntlets. Claymores with back scabbards. I hope the written content is better.

[Andy R]

I got the Osprey book on Flodden and have to say the pictures are perhaps the worst I have ever seen in any Osprey book. From the info I do have the kit is a laugh and the evidence must have come from a complete wang fest. Body warmer jacks worn over shirts. Armoured nobels but with no helmets or gauntlets. Claymores with back scabbards. I hope the written content is better.

Angus MacBride - nice artist, but attention to detail is lacking. The artwork in reid's Highlanders 1689 to 1745 is worse than this. Waistcoats with shirts a plenty

[Neil Johnston]

Come, come Mr Robertson,
You know all Jacobites only wore waistcoats with their Daz bright white shirts.

Tod the other book on Flodden I have is the old Charles Kightley one. it has a few pictures but I would imagine it is slightly dated also.
I wouldn't class the kit as Tudor per se more "very late medieval" Depends on the role you are going for but I would take a stab at fairly regulation medieval Scottish peasant dress for the vast majority of troops. Equipment not disimilar to later WOR type troops with perhaps more than the usual armour levels as James IV (your ancestor remember) was a bit of a ginger warmongering hero type and spent a lot of his country's cash on his Navy and Army.........may be something in this genetics stuff after all
Army almost all pikemen, as I recall even the nobles trained with the French instructors (remnants of whom got a doing afterwards for helping us but us not winning) a few artillerymen but not many girlie archers
Cheers
Neil

[Andy R]

a few artillerymen

Wasn't it the largest artillery train in Europe?
(Not that it did them a lot of good)

[Tod]

The Scottish guns got stuck half way up a hill but they were the biggest, the English small guns did much better (see I've been reading stuff).
The Inch sent me a book on Armour in the Glasgow museums but it hasn't helped much.
I'm thinking (dreaming) Conquest or Regia in modified kit for the Highlanders. WOTRF or MSS for the English. Northern Alliance for the Lowland Scots. The chap who does the BR would be good as well. I'd ask the SK or ECWS pike but I doubt may would want to get completely different kit.
Some one had the idea of an event, there was a posting here some where but I think it got lost last time there was a crash.

[Andy R]

John Waller was talking about it for the 500th anniversary

I'm thinking (dreaming) Conquest or Regia in modified kit for the Highlanders.

no..!

It's a bit more evolved that that, but I will have to look up the big pop up book Scotland for more info (and I think I have b**ger all reliable info - only dodgy secondary sources)

[Lindsay]

The Flodden book isn't Angus MacBride, it's Stephen Walsh... A MacBride book I might actually have bought as they do look nice, these ones just don't! He also illustrated the Otterburn book, just as badly!

Angus MacBride - nice artist, but attention to detail is lacking. The artwork in reid's Highlanders 1689 to 1745 is worse than this. Waistcoats with shirts a plenty

[Nigel]

John Waller was talking about it for the 500th anniversary

I'm thinking (dreaming) Conquest or Regia in modified kit for the Highlanders.

no..!

It's a bit more evolved that that, but I will have to look up the big pop up book Scotland for more info (and I think I have b**ger all reliable info - only dodgy secondary sources)

achetons bascinets and BIG swords doesn't that do the trick ?

looks like it Todd did you get the elite on Scotts armies

what are you planning and if its what I think Conquest would deffiantely be IN for it

[Tod]

Its just a thought at the moment. But it looks like John and I have have had the same thought. I know he posted on the Flodden web site but that means to be completely messed up as I can't post (or they've heard of me ).
Which Scots Army book do you mean?

[guthrie]

Some one had the idea of an event, there was a posting here some where but I think it got lost last time there was a crash.

My memory was that there is a local committee organising things, and someone was gettingh in touch with them.
Also Alan HArley was interested in it as well. Anyone got any more information?

[Jenn]

Like them
http://www.selkirkweekendadvertiser.co. ... 3514570.jp
you mean?
and here where John Waller posted
http://www.flodden.net/forum/thread.aspx?thread-id=19
might be worth chasing this?
Ps I think the King's Servants although English is probably the best book for the respectable common man of this period - most of the clothes are still transitional medieval with very few of really distinctive Tudor features as yet. The book that I mentioned about the Scottish court might also be of interest since it's covering the right period

[steve stanley]

Last time we got into this.......Off-board discussions reckoned there was no way we were going to let plate-armoured loonies who actually HIT people loose on our ageing ECWS pike divisions........
Steve

[guthrie]

This appears to be the relevant website:
http://www.iflodden.info/

The design is borked hence annoying, but it seems they've settled on some sort of eco-museum concept and are applying for grants, are looking at the relevant arcaheology and making some digs, and have not yet got around to the idea of an actual re-creation of the battle. Or so I think by looking through their website.

[Tod]

Borked a new word to me but if that means c**p, its all over the place. I was up there two weeks ago and there is next to nothing in the area about Flodden. Foolishly I thought there would be a museum or the like. I think it was at Ford or one of the other castles that they had a display (which it said had won awards) it was pretty poor but then re-enactors pull every thing to bits if it isn't 100% lol.
I tried to post of the flodden net web site but that is dead as well.
All I have is ideas. But I'll talk to Allan and Steve from the fed (when they are less busy!). Nigel and I are already communicating.

Andy who is is doing Border Rievers?

ECW pike push V WOTR bill block, They might might find out why point was a good idea. Seriously it wouldn't work unless there was was some very serious training and IMO there would be very few from the ECW that would invest in the right kit. But there is no harm in asking and it is three years away.

[Nigel]

I think its ETAL

But in 1985 there was an ECWS Major at Ford which has a lovely hill crying out for Flodden in front of it

REALLY want to make this work

Steve kits pretty easy and if you add in enough medievals who are used to being hit the delicate flowers that are piekmen these days would be alright

If I recall this is how Preston pans was done interested parties getting the right kit

Am almost enthusiastic

[Phil the Grips]

Andy who is is doing Border Rievers?.

I'm not Andy (nor do I play him on TV) but I can tell you-
The Borderers- the only UK reivers group with horse and foot
Steel Bonnets
Best of Times

Problem is that they tend to do "classic" era of late C16th so finding bods with Henrician/Late Mudeating reiver kit'd be rare but not undoable, wouldn't be too dissimilar from standard WoTR unless you were a Highheadyin- jack, cap, spear, doublet and hose.

Hawick has a Reiver Festival as part of the Ridings every year- maybe start by contacting them and see what contacts and organisation they have?

[Tod]

Thanks Phil. Lots to do.

[steve stanley]

Oh,I can think of quite a few individuals(myself included) who'd give it a go with enough notice......But you'd need to get units interested for it to be viable(..and get the use of the pikes).....Always wanted to be part of a BIG unit fighting at point...........

[Nigel]

Oh,I can think of quite a few individuals(myself included) who'd give it a go with enough notice......But you'd need to get units interested for it to be viable(..and get the use of the pikes).....Always wanted to be part of a BIG unit fighting at point...........

ok how much notice would you need as this is now gather ing a bit of momentum

[steve stanley]

I would say 'yes!' now....but I'm not a regiment.............

[Phil the Grips]

Is is odd that, having never done Henrician era reenactment, I have just discovered that I can put together an early-C16th gunner's kit from odds and sods in the back of my cupboard?

[Nigel]

its easy

Am thinking do we need to take this away as much as I hate to suggest it it would a facebook page be a step forward ?