Wools

Making, Pictures, Queries, Resources

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
IagotheHungry
Posts: 54
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:46 pm

Wools

Post by IagotheHungry »

Ok, so bearing in mind I'm a costuming newbie, what types of wool fabric are a no-no for C17th breeches, and what's ok? I've had a look on the fabric suppliers threads and Whaleys have a load of wool, and a couple of the others say they do too, but I'm all confused! I know broadcloth, kersey and things are ok, but what about their worsted twill or 'natural cream wool'?
Sorry for sounding so pathetic, but I'm a bit lost :S
"Do you dress like that all the time?" "Of course, except in the shower." "...They didn't have showers back then, did they?"

Dathi
Posts: 300
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:35 pm
Location: Rotherham, South Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: Wools

Post by Dathi »

Russett and worsted are both equally fine as well, as well as frieze for winter wear.

IagotheHungry
Posts: 54
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:46 pm

Re: Wools

Post by IagotheHungry »

That's fantastic, thanks very much, I think I'll bag me some worstead then :)
"Do you dress like that all the time?" "Of course, except in the shower." "...They didn't have showers back then, did they?"

User avatar
Colin Middleton
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2037
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:31 pm
Location: Sheffield
Contact:

Re: Wools

Post by Colin Middleton »

Just to be difficult, but I recognise those terms from early documents (medieval in my case), but do they mean the same now as they did then?
Colin

"May 'Blood, blood, blood' be your motto!"

Image

Dathi
Posts: 300
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:35 pm
Location: Rotherham, South Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: Wools

Post by Dathi »

Colin


-ish. That is to say, they "don't" seem to differ much. BUT there may be differences in the actual fabric over 300 years


See http://www.stuart-hmaltd.com/historical_fabrics.php for a loose guide.

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/source.aspx?pubid=739 is always interesting

Try http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... russett#s4
and http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Uwgp ... tt&f=false

User avatar
Colin Middleton
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2037
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:31 pm
Location: Sheffield
Contact:

Re: Wools

Post by Colin Middleton »

Thanks Dathi,

Always good to know these things. :D
Colin

"May 'Blood, blood, blood' be your motto!"

Image

User avatar
Sophia
Post Centurion
Posts: 806
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:46 pm
Location: Camberwell, London
Contact:

Re: Wools

Post by Sophia »

Stuart Peachey also publishes a couple of pamphlets on textiles for the 1480-1580 and 1580-1680 time bands. They are useful in so far as they give the guild guidelines for various cloths, but they are not guaranteed accurate as they only true source is a piece of cloth from period with a label on it.

I was talking to Ruth Gilbert who is a textile historian this summer at Kentwell and she pointed out that many modern worsteds are too soft in texture due to changes in wool (think merino) and production methods. Remember that the worsted threads in period cloths were hand combed (not carded) and hand spun until a very late date (hand combing was only discontinued in the late C19th) which generally produces a much harder cloth if I understood her correctly.

Part of picking your cloth is practice - you learn to judge from the hand (feel and fall of a cloth) how it will wear - and research. Read up on textile history, archaeological dig reports, historical accounts, write to museums, apply to see/touch any extant items of clothing in Museums.

Also be prepared to accept that good cloth costs money - you will not unfortunately find a huge amount of accurate cloth under £10/m and should be prepared to pay upward of £40/m if necessary.

Finally remember that the better the fit the better the garment will wear - I have learnt from experience that a badly fitted garment will not wear well as the seams will be strained and the stress on the cloth will be uneven (if it bunches where it shouldn't there will also be rubbing).
aka Thomasin Chedzoy, Tailor at Kentwell Hall

Dathi
Posts: 300
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:35 pm
Location: Rotherham, South Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: Wools

Post by Dathi »

Another nice one to know is Kochan & Phillips.

This websie has examples of their cloth http://www.najecki.com/repro/Wool.html . Their own web existance is on facebook at http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/pro ... 196&ref=ts


The fabric they make is based on 18th and early 19th Century examples so it's more machine woven that 17th Century stuff. BUT it's lovley wool...Not cheap but the quality shines through.

IagotheHungry
Posts: 54
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:46 pm

Re: Wools

Post by IagotheHungry »

Thanks guys, this is all good to know :) You're right, the worsted I was given was labelled 'heavyweight' and it felt like a napkin, so that's out I'm afraid :/ On the plus side, I found some wool flannel that feels about right to me, but I'm still searching just in case I find something better.

Is there anywhere that would have a set of C17th breeches? I'm not very up on this sort of thing, although I'd like to be!
"Do you dress like that all the time?" "Of course, except in the shower." "...They didn't have showers back then, did they?"

And So To Bed
Posts: 39
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:28 pm
Location: Under The Bed

Re: Wools

Post by And So To Bed »

Dathi wrote:Another nice one to know is Kochan & Phillips.
Do you know if there's a direct UK source for Kochan & Phillips? Or are these only available from the US, which is weird because they're woven here aren't they?
....and so home and to supper, and so to bed.

Batley Royston
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:07 pm

Re: Wools

Post by Batley Royston »

Dathi wrote:Another nice one to know is Kochan & Phillips.

This websie has examples of their cloth http://www.najecki.com/repro/Wool.html . Their own web existance is on facebook at http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/pro ... 196&ref=ts


The fabric they make is based on 18th and early 19th Century examples so it's more machine woven that 17th Century stuff. BUT it's lovley wool...Not cheap but the quality shines through.
Porbably a bit late for you but have a look at the K & P website at http://www.historicaltextiles.com

Nigel
Post Knight
Posts: 1677
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 7:45 am
Location: Pontefract
Contact:

Re: Wools

Post by Nigel »

And So To Bed wrote:
Dathi wrote:Another nice one to know is Kochan & Phillips.
Do you know if there's a direct UK source for Kochan & Phillips? Or are these only available from the US, which is weird because they're woven here aren't they?
Reading their fbook apges makes me think that they use Hainsworths I amy be wrong but I think it is
There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

Batley Royston
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:07 pm

Re: Wools

Post by Batley Royston »

Reading their fbook apges makes me think that they use Hainsworths I amy be wrong but I think it is
K & P are an independant producer, all their stuff is copied from original samples and made purely for historic purposes. I believe Hainsworth's just happens to be lines they're producing for commercial contracts but marketed for reenactors. The stuff they market for Napoleonic Red Coat cloth has changed about 4 times in the last 10 years, so can't have been 'correct' in the first place. In fact under their 'Napoleonic Range' which they decribe as 'Authentic Wool fabrics suitable for reenactment' the first 3 listed have 12% Nylon in them!

Batley Royston
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:07 pm

Re: Wools

Post by Batley Royston »

IagotheHungry wrote:Thanks guys, this is all good to know :) You're right, the worsted I was given was labelled 'heavyweight' and it felt like a napkin, so that's out I'm afraid :/ On the plus side, I found some wool flannel that feels about right to me, but I'm still searching just in case I find something better.
Is there anywhere that would have a set of C17th breeches? I'm not very up on this sort of thing, although I'd like to be!
Bear in mind Worsted is a fibre (it's woollen of course but prepared a different way as already discussed), which is just one characteristic of any particular type of cloth. The fibre can be spun and woven in a number of different ways giving different types of cloth. You can have serge thats silk or worsted, satin thats silk or worsted etc. As a result 'heavyweight worsted' is a very relative term, and pretty much useless for clasification purposes.

Most modern worsted is spun and woven finely to give a light weight fabric. In the 17th C most ordinary men's outer clothes would be some sort of felted woollen, broadcloth, kersey etc. Broadcloth is plain-weave, kersey is twill; both are then heavily milled to give a solid, felted finish so you can't see the weave (known as a 'blind' finish). Cloths of these broad types were often then known by names relating to their place of manufacture (Worcester, Coventry cloth, both types of Broadcloth) or other features.

Mixed Grey broadcloth or kersey seems to have been common in the 17th C for breeches.

User avatar
sheepmilker
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2008 5:37 pm
Location: New France

Re: Wools

Post by sheepmilker »

Others have mentioned Stuart Peachey's books, but don't forget that he sells the closest thing to the most common types of 17C cloth that I know of. http://stuart-hmaltd.com/historical_fabrics.php and someone else pointed out Aiden Campbell http://www.aidan-campbell.co.uk/textiles.htm

User avatar
John Waller
Post Knight
Posts: 1551
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 1:36 pm
Location: Surrey

Re: Wools

Post by John Waller »

Nigel wrote: Reading their fbook apges makes me think that they use Hainsworths I amy be wrong but I think it is
Not so Nige. As Batley Royston says it's independently made and to specs from C19th mill records. It's not cheap (but not much difference to Hainsworth's prices) but top stuff. We in the 2nd have switched to it for our coats.
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

Chimples
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:17 pm

Re: Wools

Post by Chimples »

Curious if KP wool is available in Europe or Canada (without having to go through the states to get it)?

Dathi
Posts: 300
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:35 pm
Location: Rotherham, South Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: Wools

Post by Dathi »

Yes, you can contact Sean directly in the UK and order that way

Post Reply