13th century medicine

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DeMeer
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Re: 13th century medicine

Postby DeMeer » Tue Mar 16, 2010 9:09 pm

Hi Karen & Marcus,

Thats brill thanks i will look into both of them the more i have the better. It can be so mind boggling sometimes but with all the help i have been getting I'm sure i will get there.

Cheers

Sharron


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Re: 13th century medicine

Postby gregory23b » Fri Apr 02, 2010 7:32 pm

NOthing to do with bandages, but a nice entry on wound cleansing, using alcohol

?a1425 *Chauliac(1) (NY 12) 60a/b: Fresh wondez wasshen with aqua vite geteþ þe effecte of fulsone helyng, for it is mych desiccatyue.


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Re: 13th century medicine

Postby guthrie » Fri Apr 02, 2010 9:20 pm

Ah, of course, alcohol being hot and fiery (albeit somewhat wet) it would naturally dry things out...



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Re: 13th century medicine

Postby gregory23b » Sun Apr 04, 2010 3:38 pm

yep, hence the siccative, part. Shame they did not understand bacteria, they would have been on the money.


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Re: 13th century medicine

Postby Apothecary » Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:27 am

Dear Brother

No i don't have hounds tongue, not that much of a demand for it, but if you like I see if my supplier can get you some ? is there anything else you think you would like ?

With regard to my comments, a few of them were said 'tongue in cheek' you know, but I stand by what I said,

kind regards

Jayne
www.jaynemilner.com



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Re: 13th century medicine

Postby gregory23b » Tue Apr 27, 2010 4:12 pm

"but I stand by what I said,"

Do you accept the references for line bandages?


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Re: 13th century medicine

Postby gregory23b » Sat May 08, 2010 8:12 pm

Further to the lack of evidence of linen used in wounds.

From the book

Medieval and Early Renaissance Medicine
Nancy G Siraisi - (A woman)



Page 185, final sentence in penultimate paragraph, concerning wound management,
"Wider practical usefulness may have resulted from such modest enlargements of the surgeon's repertoire as he availability of aqua vitae as as wine for cleansing wounds and the use in Italy of locally produced silk thread as an alternative to linen thread for sutures."

My bold for emphasis, that hardly supports the idea that linen was somehow more likely to cause wound infection, as sutures are more intimately connected with a wound than a surface bandage or pad.

I know that using 'common sense' is a good thing, but actual evidence is better.


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Re: 13th century medicine

Postby gregory23b » Sat Jun 19, 2010 9:36 am

More references to flax being used in wounds.

?c1450 Stockh.PRecipes (Stockh 10.90) 104/9: Take flax and make a weke and do it in þe jus and putte it in þe wounde.

c1475(1392) *MS Wel.564 (Wel 564) 125a/b: Take a weke of flex þat schal be baþid in hoot wyne & wronge out & þat schal be leid to þe wounde.


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Re: 13th century medicine

Postby Brother Ranulf » Sat Jun 19, 2010 9:57 am

Gregory, those are interesting, both because of the word weke (it must be connected with "wick") and the use of hot wine as a cleaning/disinfecting agent. I have seen reference to honey used in that way, but not hot wine.


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Re: 13th century medicine

Postby Eve » Sat Jun 19, 2010 10:20 am

Forgotten references but wine was used as a wash for wounds for a long time, as was vinegar.

Interestingly, the idea of a wick and linen being laid on the wound is almost exactly what happened to a deep wound I had (result of an abcess) just a few weeks ago. Modern nurses don't use linen but stuff derived from seaweed (I think). They used 2 different types, one was stiff and felt like cardboad when it first went into the wound (it hurt) until it softened; the other type looked like white candy floss and was much more comfortable. The idea is to close the wound from the bottom, thereby avoiding the outer part healing and an abcess forming under the surface. As the bottom closes they put less and less in until it closes up completely. The wound continues to weep while this is going on. I now have quite a large scar but it's nowhere nearly as bad as I thought it was going to be. All I can say is that even in the past they knew how to deal with large wounds. They were not daft. :thumbup:



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Re: 13th century medicine

Postby gregory23b » Sat Jun 19, 2010 11:24 am

Brother R, they are wick, I was actually looking for cotton wicks for candles, apropos the candle making thread, but was diverted by the wound treatment, tampons come to mind.

They are but two of the examples they were specific in the material listed, the others simply mention a wick.

the whole section is as follows


a1450 Diseases Women(2) (Sln 2463) 78: Take ceruse ... lete wetyn a weke therin & putte it in her prevy membre in manere of a suppositorie.
a1450 Diseases Women(2) (Sln 2463) 90: Lete her smelle stynkyng thinges ... as ... feþeres brent, oþer a wyke wet in oyle & ytende & sithen yquenched.

c1450 Med.Bk.(1) (Med-L 136) 276/891: Make round wekys as a mannes littel fynger, sharp at on end and temper it in the hony and a threde on the grete end, & put in the fundement vp all in & let þe threde hange with oute.

?c1450 Stockh.PRecipes (Stockh 10.90) 104/9: Take flax and make a weke and do it in þe jus and putte it in þe wounde.
a1475 Gilb.Angl.(Wel 537) 69/17: Take ... oile of roses ... and put þerof in þe eere, dipped in a wike or in coton.

c1475(1392) *MS Wel.564 (Wel 564) 125a/b: Take a weke of flex þat schal be baþid in hoot wyne & wronge out & þat schal be leid to þe wounde.

a1500 Diseases Women(3) (Yale-M 47) 53/469: Take sal gemme and sal nytre; poudre hem and temper hem with vynegre and salt watre and weet a woke [DW(2): weke] of coton þer yn and put it in to hire priuey membre, and it wyll delyuer hire of hire corrupt sede.


I have read of wine rinse elsewhere, seems common enough. There are refs somewhere to aqua vitae rinses, I may have posted them previously.


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Re: 13th century medicine

Postby Eve » Sat Jun 19, 2010 12:19 pm

Gregory - you have provided the sources for a discussion we women have been having on here about sanitary protection - I've only got to find the thread now - Hummmm :roll:
Thank you



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Re: 13th century medicine

Postby gregory23b » Sat Jun 19, 2010 1:00 pm

Not my area, but those examples seem to be for treatment of illness/conditions rather than menstruation.

The next lot are about menstruation.

(a1398) * Trev. Barth.(Add 27944) 243b/a: Accherne..stauncheþ and stynteþ menstrual flux and rennyng.

a1400 Lanfranc (Ashm 1396) 55/17: [Ne a womman] in tyme of menstrue [vr. menstrewe] ne loke not on þe sike man.

?a1425(1373) * Lelamour Macer (Sln 5) 17b: Also that drinke makiþ one to pisse and clensithe menstrue, that is, womanys flouris

*Chauliac(1) (NY 12) 36a/b: Cancre as ofte tymez falleþ in þe pappez & glandilous placez &, namely, to wymmen when þai haue not menstruez [Ch.(2): here floures; L menstrua].

?a1425 *Chauliac(1) (NY 12) 94a/a: G[alien] seiþ..þat euery flux of blode is out of kynde suple except of mensurate menstruez.

c1425 Arderne Fistula (Sln 6) 60/2: Þe same [heavy] vryne also may betokne..in wymmen withholdyng of menstruez.

?c1425 Chauliac(2) (Paris angl.25) 67/33: Bytwene it [matrix] and þe tetes beeþ melky and menstrual veynes contynued; wherfore Galien saide..þat Ypocras saide mylke to be a broþer to menstrues [L menstruo].

?c1425 Chauliac(2) (Paris angl.25) 322/26: Þe fluxe of þe menstrues, i. moneth euelles..is onely ordeynede to þe helthe of all the kynde.

Wycliffe Bible mention of the cloth.
c1450 WBible(2) (Bod 277) Is.64.6: Menstrue, or vnclene blood [Roy: Alle oure ri3tfulnessis ben as the cloth of a womman in vncleene blood].


Pessarie
?c1450 Stockh.PRecipes (Stockh 10.90) 45/8: And loke þat þou do in þi pessarie whanne þat þe menstruis ben at þe hiest.

c1475(1392) *MS Wel.564 (Wel 564) 46b/a: The bloodlast of þat veyne þat is vndir þe greete too ys good for þe sijknesse of þe matrice, as for þe retencioun of þe menstrew.


These are specifically about pessaries for treatments

a1400 Lanfranc (Ashm 1396) 339/18: A mundificatif may be..a medicyn..þat is putt in bineþe wiþ a clisterie ouþer wiþ a pessarie [L pessario] for to make clene a mannes lymes wiþinne.

?a1425 *Chauliac(1) (NY 12) 18b/a: Þe maner of medicynyng bi pessariez [L pessaria] is founden of it & þis of þe matrice.

?a1425 *Chauliac(1) (NY 12) 152a/a: It [mola matricis] is cured with mollificatyuez..& þingez prouokyng aborsum & wiþ pessarijs & oþer instrumentez & wirchingez with which þe secondine is drawen out.

?a1450 Macer (Stockh Med.10.91) 175: Ðis herbe wole dryve oute of a woman here dede childe, if gose grese be..medled with [it], and þan þei be set vnder þe cunte as it were a pessarie.

?a1450 Macer (Stockh Med.10.91) 183: Coste..wole stanche þe ache of þe cunte if þe woman put vnder her a pessarye of þise. ?

c1450 Stockh.PRecipes (Stockh 10.90) 13/23: A woman þat hath to myche flyxe of here flowrys, make here a pessarie in þis maner: Take ypequistos, [etc.].

?c1450 Stockh.PRecipes (Stockh 10.90) 110/6: 3if it [oil] be with aperasye [read: a pesarye] don in-to a womannys wombe, it bryngyth owte þe chyld, þowgh it be deed with-hynne here.

c1475(1392) *MS Wel.564 (Wel 564) 114a/a: If þe siknesse..be in ony hid place putte it yn wiþ a pessarie or with a clisterie and þanne stoppe þat place wiþ cotoun.


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Re: 13th century medicine

Postby gregory23b » Sat Jun 19, 2010 1:19 pm

The following are mainly about stopping menstrual flow, you will note they are part of the same treatises mentioned above.

My bolds for interest

I like the terms 'floures'.

?a1425(1373) * Lelamour Macer (Sln 5) 17b: That drinke..clensithe menstrue, that is womanys flouris.

?a1425(1373) * Lelamour Macer (Sln 5) 47a: Late a woman drinke that juis with wlake wyne in tyme of flourys.

c1400 Veynes þer be (Wel 406) 190: A woman schal in the harme blede For stoppyng of hure flowrys at nede.

?c1425 *Chauliac(2) (Paris angl.25) 21a/b: After þe same tyme, it happeþ nou3t wommans floures [L menstrua] wel to be made and womman 3if mylke.

?c1450 Stockh.PRecipes (Stockh 10.90) 44/16: A woman þat hath to myche flyxe of here flowrys, make here a pessarie in þis maner.

?c1450 Stockh.PRecipes (Stockh 10.90) 81/17,22: For a woman þat haþ lornn her floures..For a woman þat haþ to many floures.

a1500 Peterb.Lapid.(Peterb 33) 80: It well stanche blod of all membres, & namly wemmen þat han ouermyche her flowres. ?

a1500 Veynes þer be (SeldSup 73) 78: In the hammes A woman shall blede ffor stoppynge of her flawres at nede.


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Re: 13th century medicine

Postby Grania » Sat Jun 19, 2010 5:19 pm

Fascinating stuff everyone...although I think I'm going to have to re-read it to get it all through my head.

I vaguely remember reading a long time ago of a Roman antiseptic remedy..I think it was for eyes...that combined wine and honey, both being antiseptic....anyone got any ideas?

A couple of people have mentioned Master and Commander, doubting the Hollywood bit - can't agree more with doubting film makers, but the series of books on which that film was based were seriously researched, so if you're thinking of the books as a source I'd be far more inclined to agree. Having worked my way through 6 and a half of the series of 20 so far, plus author's notes, while I won't say they're infallible of course, they are very well researched in comparison to almost all other historical fiction I have read.


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Re: 13th century medicine

Postby Eve » Sat Jun 19, 2010 8:04 pm

I think I said that the film 'Master & Commander' WAS accurate for medical details.



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Re: 13th century medicine

Postby gregory23b » Sat Jun 19, 2010 8:14 pm

And the bit where cloth was mentioned was to do with being wounded whilst wearing dirty clothes*, inclusions to the wound not just limited to linens but any surface material, (rather than linen having a propensity for infecting wounds), something that Jayne seems to have misinterpreted. Certainly, evidence shows that clean linen was used intimately in not just wound dressing but supports, sutures and even inserted into mucous membranes.

*if memory serves O'Brian was not the first to mention it by any means.


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Re: 13th century medicine

Postby Grania » Sat Jun 19, 2010 8:28 pm

My apologies if I mis-read what people said :$ I suppose I'm far too used to having to criticise films. Sorry


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Re: 13th century medicine

Postby Colin Middleton » Mon Jun 21, 2010 12:45 pm

gregory23b wrote:And the bit where cloth was mentioned was to do with being wounded whilst wearing dirty clothes*, inclusions to the wound not just limited to linens but any surface material...


Presumably linnen (being easier to wash) was worn next to the skin, so is more likley to be the dirty clothes. From there, it's an easy jump to linnen being dangerous, rather than dirt on the linnen being dangerous...


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Re: 13th century medicine

Postby gregory23b » Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:58 pm

Yep.

Exactomondo.


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Re: 13th century medicine

Postby Hobbitstomper » Mon Jun 21, 2010 4:22 pm

Why would anyone use linen?

It is basically the same as cotton but stronger. Its excellent absorbent properties mean it is better at keeping wounds dry and it is less likely to leak blood all over your clothes. No one complains about cotton bandages dropping fibres in to wounds but cotton is fluffier and weaker.

The only disadvantages are that there is no stretch in it (so whatever you bandage up won’t move) if you dunk it in water it soaks it up and it costs more than cotton.

I’ve used linen to wrap up cuts and it works fine.

A local sewing shop told me that the dentist bought linen thread from them for sewing up wounds.

Also a few seconds with google produced:

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/pdf_extract/1/3252/717
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3064051
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19097822

Don’t bother searching on linen bandages or all you will get is pages about mummies and World of Warcraft.

Also- don’t forget that dirty linen clothing = smelly linen. Everyone knows that bad smells cause infection so that would be avoided.



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Re: 13th century medicine

Postby Karen Larsdatter » Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:55 pm

Hobbitstomper wrote:Why would anyone use linen?

It is basically the same as cotton but stronger.

:wtf:

Umm -- do you mean why did medieval people use linen as opposed to cotton, or are you just talking about modern medical contexts?



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Re: 13th century medicine

Postby Hobbitstomper » Tue Jun 29, 2010 5:29 pm

I was comparing what medieval people had lots of (linen) against what we use today (cotton). I think linen would make pretty good bandages.



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Re: 13th century medicine

Postby gregory23b » Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:16 pm

Even more, thanks to Jenn Reed, for inadvertently pointing me to this link, notably it is a later transcription of a 13th century tract, plus it is for treating open sores on legs.

http://www.uab.edu/reynolds/manuscripts ... 1-tract21r

" /And whanne þu wilt vse it make a rolle of kane-
uas.
as so brod as þyn hand/ and also lange as þow
may rolle it from þe foot to þe kne. and wete
þe rolle of kaneuas
with þe water aforesayd þat it
be thorgh wete./ and þanne rolle it on þe seke legge
also streyt as þow may. and do þus .3. tymes in þe
day
and it schal make þe legge smal in his kynde
and frete a wey al þe dede flesch þowgh þer
were an hundrid holis in þe legge or a mormal. and
hele þe legge for euer with owte any salue plaster
or oynement/ in hasty tyme./"


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