Pagans, Druids and Witches

Historic questions, thoughts and other interesting stuff

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Pagans, Druids and Witches

Postby craig1459 » Sat Dec 24, 2005 7:11 pm

I'd never crossed paths with pagans until I took up re-enactment and there seem to be a fair few about.

I'm interested to find out about this - for my own information rather than any attempt to find a spiritual path. So what's it all about?

(Skev - I thought I'd give the forum a chance to flesh out what you've already told me rather than leave it all to you :) )


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Postby WorkMonkey » Sat Dec 24, 2005 7:16 pm

All this modern Druidism stuff is made up from when the victorians re-invented it, obviously nothing exists from the "originals" so I'm not sure how they justify it, I'd imagine most of neo-paganism is the same. I've encountered various forms of neo-paganism and I deduced that they pretty just make it up as they go along, when I pointed this out though they made a massive scene about it and had me "ejected" from their circle. Some of its just a spiritual relation with nature which I guess i can understand but these "old god" worshippers do my head in, no offence intended.

I've p*ssed off a few witches in my time as well, I think I've been cursed about 3 times, maybe a forth, but I walked off before they had time to finish because it was just embarrassing to be honest.

One of the very reasons why religion is so awesome

I'm sure someone can go into more depth, like how and why they make it up, and what purpose that serves.

Flame away.


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Postby Thorlak » Sat Dec 24, 2005 8:46 pm

Within modern paganism there is very little left of 'The old ways'

Most of maodern pganism is indeed getting in touch with nature.
They also do not discriminate between what holy days they celebrate as they celebrte all of the 'Old Gods' days of worship and also the more modern Christian ones

So modern paganism is just a patchwork of all modern and old religions just cobbled together



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Postby Guest » Sun Dec 25, 2005 1:17 am

Interestingly enough, in the 15th Cent. there WAS an official pagan church, in Lithuania (Greater Lithuania, not the rump state which exists now)

Not sure of the details, but it was state sponsored, and involved some serpent worship, as well as forest gods with multiple faces, (rather like the Roman Janus). This came to an end when Lithuania was Christianised by the marriage of Jadwiga of Poland to Jagellio of Lithuania, forming the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth

The rest of Europe was pretty much Christianised (apart from Muslims in Spain and Jews in various areas), athough I'm sure that there were still many aspects of Pagan ritual used in many countries which were being surpressed as superstition, or absorbed into church lore. Even most "witchcraft" involved spells and prayers to call on angelic powers to communicate with God without the intercession of the Church. (Look up Dr. John Dee in the 16th C.)



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Postby Fillionous » Tue Dec 27, 2005 2:05 pm

I would be very careful of slandering / bad mouthing anyones faith / belief, no matter how much you personnally think it is a load of hockum. To do so, not only belittles yourself and your beliefs, but can be seen as antagonistic and rude to someone who genuinly does believe in thier path.

Now while there are some Pagans / Neo-pagans / Wiccans etc that are just fluff bunnies and jumping on band wagons of nonsence; there are others who are genuinly trying to recreate belief systems, just like re-enactors recreate weapons, tools and lifestyles and do a heck of a lot of research into thier chosen cultures / periods. (Which is why I suspect there is a cross over of Pagans and re-enactors.)
Others have developed a more general belief system based around respect for nature and all things within the world (people, animals, plants, the planet and universe itself), a belief in male and female divinities (often just called the Lord and Lady or prehaps symbolised as the sun and moon... no they don't worship the sun and moon!), prehaps belief in magick (spelt that way to distinguish from stage tricks) and re-incarnation, and a desire to find a peaceful balanced way to live (morals like the Wiccan Rede).
There are others still who follow genuine native belief systems, such as those which have survived into modern times amoungst native peoples and tribes, some of these are now accepting initiates from other cultures / backgrounds.

Not all Pagans / Neo-pagans practice Witchcraft, indeed not all Pagans are Wiccans or Witches...

It is complex, it is growing and changing and developing, in part because it is new and in part because Pagans are incouraged to think and discover for themselves (not rely on a set dogma, book or 'spiritual leader').

The Modern Wiccan movement can trace its origins back to the repealing of the anti-witchcraft laws in Britain and the subsiquent writings of Gerald Gardner, his Coven and his tradition 'decendants' (people like the Farrars and Cunningham). It underwent a further major expantion when the Americans got hold of it in the 60's and 70' and with the New age movement and demands by women for equality... Which created modern authors like West, Rea Beth and unfortunetly Silver RavenWolf.

The following sites may give you more information.

http://branwenscauldron.com/forum/
http://www.witchvox.com/xwotw.html
http://www.witchswell.com/wicca.html

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Postby WorkMonkey » Tue Dec 27, 2005 2:15 pm

Ah thorlak, looks like we've got some righteous smiting of t he pagan pigs to do. We'll let the roleplayers and children wear them down first! Gods hand will surely guide us to victory!


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Postby Thorlak » Tue Dec 27, 2005 4:07 pm

Death to the heathens!

Christos will guide us to victory

Yes throw the nothings at them first then we will swoop in for the kill



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Postby Skevmeister » Wed Dec 28, 2005 8:35 am

Work Monkey,

Try the stuff from Ceaser, Tacitus, Pythgoras, the xsiting laws based on the barrdas, welsh history, irish history, Christian Saints all based on the old religions, and for teh recrationism of druidry, Try Stukely forming the Ancient Order Of Druid back in the 1700's.

If you can build plate mail of some badly drawn image painted in the 15th century depicting some story in the 14th century, then you can read the classics and re-learn and understand and re-create.

Read what filonius has said WM and think, do not drag this down the normal path of the forum, do not belittle peoples beliefs. And let Craig get the answer to his question with out wading through stuff.

I for one am not going into my beliefs any deeper than a cursory discussion of some of the resources I have used on this or any internet forum, where those willing to debase my personally held belief that I have had for over 20 years now with out having the teste's to do it to my face. And if it was believed in once it can be belived in again.

You can believe what you want and I would defend that right for you to the death as many people have done before allow me to have mine.

Thorlak = Troll


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Postby Rod Hull » Wed Dec 28, 2005 10:52 am

Skevmeister wrote:Try the stuff from Ceaser, Tacitus


Wicker men and a totally biased opinion concerning a religion they brutally suppressed and wiped out because it caused them so much trouble, you mean? You'd be better off basing a belief in Judaism as taught by some chap with a beard in deepest Gaza.

Hang on a moment...some Romans thought Christians ate human flesh and drank blood based on a misguided understanding on transubstantiation. Let's hope that some of them don't use your line of logic here.

Believe what you like, matey - but you're on very shaky ground if you use Roman literature to justify things like this.



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Postby Skevmeister » Wed Dec 28, 2005 11:10 am

Rod Hull wrote:
Skevmeister wrote:Try the stuff from Ceaser, Tacitus


Wicker men and a totally biased opinion concerning a religion they brutally suppressed and wiped out because it caused them so much trouble, you mean? You'd be better off basing a belief in Judaism as taught by some chap with a beard in deepest Gaza.

Hang on a moment...some Romans thought Christians ate human flesh and drank blood based on a misguided understanding on transubstantiation. Let's hope that some of them don't use your line of logic here.

Believe what you like, matey - but you're on very shaky ground if you use Roman literature to justify things like this.


I dont just use this I use my own personal, spiritual and intuitive beliefs as well. I say that they have quite extensive references to colleges, and not to take it at face value, but to use it as a reference point. Just like we do with the book of days, and other such references for clothes etc....

Oh BTW, just before you start insulting the Sun's of the Desrt, they did write about it, and aren't jews men with beards from teh desert originally. And following your line of thought that the bible is irrellevant as it was written by the romans, and also by the Germans, and By the English.... Why is it that when you mention a belief system that the denogrators, miss the fact that it is a belief and that as such does not need to be based on belief. Maybe if we had more belivers in the world we wouldn't have so much suffering. Belief does not make people suffer, those who abuse, twist and torture the writings of the belief.

At the end of the day I don't give a toss whether you belive it, belive me or not. I believe it and if that makes you think that I am soime sad twisted wierdo and that is your loss not mine. The people I care about allow me to believe and that is all that's important.

I wish you all the best to go and get on with you your life as you see best, people died to allow opinion, you have yours I have mine.

Go In Peace.


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Postby steve stanley » Wed Dec 28, 2005 12:16 pm

Do think there's a lot to be said for Message Boards that ban Religion & Politics.........


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Postby Skevmeister » Wed Dec 28, 2005 12:50 pm

No Steve,

I disagree, religion effects us all and a good well thought out discussion is important, but not some little snippets that just try to belittle or denograte those who propse the argument.

I have some excellent discussions with my catholic friends, about it all. It just a shame that some people turn it into a slanging match.

I wish to offend now one. ANd wish you all the best


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Postby WorkMonkey » Wed Dec 28, 2005 1:00 pm

Thorlak is not a troll, he has more Elf-like qualities


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Postby Skevmeister » Wed Dec 28, 2005 1:02 pm

What elf's are just a s bad as trolls, at least trolls are honest elfs are thugs wrapped up in propriety where as trolls are just thugs.... Bit like police and football fans really :D


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Postby WorkMonkey » Wed Dec 28, 2005 1:05 pm

hm, I think maybe he's closer to a fairy then, all that prancing about!


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Postby Skevmeister » Wed Dec 28, 2005 1:06 pm

PMSL :D :shock: :twisted:


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Postby WorkMonkey » Wed Dec 28, 2005 1:08 pm

He'll read this and try to defend himself but he'll just proove my point tonight. YOU'LL RUN THORLAK, OH HOW YOU'LL RUN!


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Postby Guest » Wed Dec 28, 2005 1:21 pm

[quote="Skevmeister] Oh BTW, just before you start insulting the Sun's of the Desrt, they did write about it, and aren't jews men with beards from teh desert originally. And following your line of thought that the bible is irrellevant as it was written by the romans, and also by the Germans, and By the English.... [/quote]

No. The Bible was not written by the Romans. It was written in Aramic and Greek. Not Latin.

The Old Testament was written before the Romans were on the scene. As for the New Testament, I'm sure that St Paul would have probably been proud to be a Roman (despite being born in Turkey) right up to the point that they beheaded him. The `English' didn't actually appear until the 7th-8th AD and by then Christianity had already seen off about 100 popes and Nicea was nothing but a memory. The Germans - if you have some evidence that they wrote part of the Bible, I would love to see it!

As for `the sons of the desert' - you missed the point entirely. What I was suggesting was that it not be wise to believe the Romans wrote about pre-Christian religions in Europe on account on them being hopelessly biased...history being written by `the winners' and all.



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Postby Thorlak » Thu Dec 29, 2005 2:28 am

How dare you I won again

And just because I fight that elegantly I appear to dance does not make me a fairy

And also I resent the remark troll No one is stopping you having your opinion Skevmeister

I am merely staying in character and us Saxons have to h8 pagans/viking scum

So there you go

sorry if I have offended!



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Postby Guest » Thu Dec 29, 2005 11:43 am

I apologise Thorlak I misunderstood your comments.

Please accept my apology

Skev



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Postby Thorlak » Thu Dec 29, 2005 2:04 pm

Thanks for that m8



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Postby craig1459 » Sat Dec 31, 2005 5:03 pm

Skevmeister wrote: Oh BTW, just before you start insulting the Sun's of the Desrt, they did write about it, and aren't jews men with beards from teh desert originally. And following your line of thought that the bible is irrellevant as it was written by the romans, and also by the Germans, and By the English....


Anonymous wrote:No. The Bible was not written by the Romans. It was written in Aramic and Greek. Not Latin.

The Old Testament was written before the Romans were on the scene. As for the New Testament, I'm sure that St Paul would have probably been proud to be a Roman (despite being born in Turkey) right up to the point that they beheaded him. The `English' didn't actually appear until the 7th-8th AD and by then Christianity had already seen off about 100 popes and Nicea was nothing but a memory. The Germans - if you have some evidence that they wrote part of the Bible, I would love to see it!

As for `the sons of the desert' - you missed the point entirely. What I was suggesting was that it not be wise to believe the Romans wrote about pre-Christian religions in Europe on account on them being hopelessly biased...history being written by `the winners' and all.


Thanks for the (useful) info re:the topic especially Fillionious and Skev

St Paul was beheaded rather than crucified because he was a Roman citizen so I believe. Off the topic but hey - I started it :lol:
Who compiled the Bible as we know it - deciding what went in and what was excluded - wasn't that the Romans?
There is also the lost in translation effect - compare crossing the Red Sea with crossing the reed sea


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Postby Rod Hull » Sun Jan 01, 2006 9:20 pm

craig1459 wrote:St Paul was beheaded rather than crucified because he was a Roman citizen so I believe. Off the topic but hey - I started it :lol:
Who compiled the Bible as we know it - deciding what went in and what was excluded - wasn't that the Romans?
There is also the lost in translation effect - compare crossing the Red Sea with crossing the reed sea


What makes someone a Roman is a whole different barrel of garum however...since Caracalla if you were born in the Empire and weren't a slave you were a Roman. You could hate anyone outside your racial group, not speak a word of Latin, hate the Emperor with a passion and still technically be a Roman.

Did the Romans compile the bible? Well, some of them undoubtedly had a hand in it - although the Greeks had a lot more influence. These are the people who massacred each other over the inclusion/exclusion of the letter `i' in certain words.

In the late Roman period, there were a large number of opposing factions - Arians, Monophysites, Paulicians, Pelagians, the Roman church, the Orthodox church (later Greek, Armenian, Egyptian), the Celtic church and many, many more.

So - in conclusion. The Romans didn't write the bible. It wasn't originally written in their language and they were just one of many groups who took part in the nasty scuffles to determine who were the real heretics. :wink:



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Postby Gyrthofhwicce » Wed Jan 11, 2006 3:24 pm

WorkMonkey wrote:All this modern Druidism stuff is made up from when the victorians re-invented it, obviously nothing exists from the "originals" so I'm not sure how they justify it, I'd imagine most of neo-paganism is the same. I've encountered various forms of neo-paganism and I deduced that they pretty just make it up as they go along, when I pointed this out though they made a massive scene about it and had me "ejected" from their circle. Some of its just a spiritual relation with nature which I guess i can understand but these "old god" worshippers do my head in, no offence intended.

I've p*ssed off a few witches in my time as well, I think I've been cursed about 3 times, maybe a forth, but I walked off before they had time to finish because it was just embarrassing to be honest.

One of the very reasons why religion is so awesome

I'm sure someone can go into more depth, like how and why they make it up, and what purpose that serves.

Flame away.


Workmonkey,
Your arrogance and misunderstood comments are what is fundamentaly wrong with most of todays society. If you dont understand it, you belittle it and make fun of it. I am a pagan, although i hate that term, but my religion is private to me, and i would never think of making fun of anybodies religion no matter what their faith.
Would you make such derogatory comments about Buddhism, or Muslim, or even Christianity?

I was christened into the Church of England, but as i grew i actually found that i didnt agree with the Christian faith. How can i be told to love my neighbour with one hand, and then told that certain things like homosexuality are against gods will. Does that mean i can love everybody else but stone someone who is gay??? Also, if i loved my neighbour, why would i then wage war on him to convert him to this one religion??

Most of todays modern paganism is ecclectic, and does take bits from here and there, and that is (I believe) what makes it so interesting, we are not tied to having our thought given to us, and can think outside the box, unlike (I believe, and i apologise if i upset any Christian people with this comment) Christianity, that spells it all out for you. I like the idea of not knowing where i'm going when i die (if anywhere) instead of having to join the queue at the pearly gates.

Next time you feel the need to make fun of someones faith, do it elsewhere, or keep it to yourself in your darkened little bedroom.


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Postby WorkMonkey » Wed Jan 11, 2006 3:56 pm

Gyrthofhwicce wrote:Would you make such derogatory comments about Buddhism, or Muslim, or even Christianity?


Yes, since all religion is fundamentally flawed, and what, may i ask is the point in having a "pick n' mix" religion, where you make up what you want to do? Surely if you believe in a 'free' existance then the very idea of being constrained to the idea of a religion is just onehuge tangle of illogical mess? Your last comment was particually Ironic and kind of blew your "moral highground" card straight out the water.
ho hum. Everything I said was pretty much true, and the fact you kicked up a fuss just goes to proove my point about people making a big deal out of it when you say that they make it up as they go along.

Oh well.


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Postby Gyrthofhwicce » Wed Jan 11, 2006 4:17 pm

20, Catholic and Bored, should have realised the mixing process for the Am I bothered\know it all\superior than you cake. :P

Religion isnt flawed, it is however emotive, and causes more arguements than anything else in the world, including politics. My Arguement which you failed to pick up on, was the fact that you cant make flippent remarks about someones personal beliefs, and not understand that this can and will offend people.

Religion and Politics are subjects best left alone, unless you are with someone who is happy to sit and discuss them with you.

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Postby WorkMonkey » Wed Jan 11, 2006 4:18 pm

I like discussing. Winding people up is the best way to get them to talk about it, or punch you...

I'm not catholic either, I just dont know how to change it.


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Postby Gyrthofhwicce » Wed Jan 11, 2006 4:21 pm

WorkMonkey wrote:I'm not catholic either, I just dont know how to change it.


Dont try, you'll never change Catholisism, try something easier like paganism


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Postby WorkMonkey » Wed Jan 11, 2006 4:30 pm

I found all the child eating upset my delicate constitution. 8)


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Postby Gyrthofhwicce » Wed Jan 11, 2006 4:34 pm

WorkMonkey wrote:I found all the child eating upset my delicate constitution. 8)


Swap to kittens, once shaved they can be place on a spit, and served with a fine herb salad and some wild rice. Very nice eaten skyclad, in the middle of a wood with a nice blazing fire.


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