Question for the archers among us
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Question for the archers among us
Am playing with one or two things this end, which, combined with a convo at Tagi, has got me plotting an experiment.
Can anyone tell me:
* Is there a rough "basic" dimensions/shape for quivers?
* If so, does this change depending on period?
Thanks gang!
Can anyone tell me:
* Is there a rough "basic" dimensions/shape for quivers?
* If so, does this change depending on period?
Thanks gang!
- Brother Ranulf
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Not sure you have posted this in the right section (General History?), and of course it very much depends which bit of the world you are interested in.
In England quivers seem to have (very strangely) disappeared completely soon after 1066 and don't really make much of a re-appearance until the Victorian renaissance of archery for gentlewomen.
The "ideal" quiver would completely cover the arrows within, so would need some kind of flap to open before withdrawing the arrows - native American quivers (upon which Hollywood based its Robin Hood quivers) tend to be slightly shorter than the arrows, with a reinforced bottom end to prevent the heads cutting through.
In England quivers seem to have (very strangely) disappeared completely soon after 1066 and don't really make much of a re-appearance until the Victorian renaissance of archery for gentlewomen.
The "ideal" quiver would completely cover the arrows within, so would need some kind of flap to open before withdrawing the arrows - native American quivers (upon which Hollywood based its Robin Hood quivers) tend to be slightly shorter than the arrows, with a reinforced bottom end to prevent the heads cutting through.
Brother Ranulf
"Patres nostri et nos hanc insulam in brevi edomuimus in brevi nostris subdidimus legibus, nostris obsequiis mancipavimus" - Walter Espec 1138
"Patres nostri et nos hanc insulam in brevi edomuimus in brevi nostris subdidimus legibus, nostris obsequiis mancipavimus" - Walter Espec 1138
Yup.
This section is for questions / help about the forum itself, this goes in general history.
PS. I agree with BR, although IIRC there is some evidence for use of something like quivers on ships, presumably because it's hard to stick the arrows in the ground when you are on a deck?
This section is for questions / help about the forum itself, this goes in general history.
PS. I agree with BR, although IIRC there is some evidence for use of something like quivers on ships, presumably because it's hard to stick the arrows in the ground when you are on a deck?
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I'm sure I've seen c15th paintings of archers with their arrows shoved down their belts.
Somehow, I suspect quivers of some kind were used during the transportation of arrows but not actually on the field. Possibly these quivers were quite large (barrels / boxes?) as they may have been meant to hold communal stashes of arrows which got handed out to archers at the start of the battle? I'm not sure individual archers would have had their own quivers for personal arrow storage, but as ever I may be wrong.
Somehow, I suspect quivers of some kind were used during the transportation of arrows but not actually on the field. Possibly these quivers were quite large (barrels / boxes?) as they may have been meant to hold communal stashes of arrows which got handed out to archers at the start of the battle? I'm not sure individual archers would have had their own quivers for personal arrow storage, but as ever I may be wrong.
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- Fillionous
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The only referances I can recall of British 'quivers' / arrow storage are leather spacers inside a cloth bag. The spacers are basically a disc of leather with variously 6,8,12,24 holes in it, these stop the fletchings getting damaged and the cloth bag, which in some pictures may be re-enforced in the base to stop the arrow piles cutting through or be hald shape wise with prehaps? a wicker basket covers the whole lenght of arrow to keep them dry for transit, has an opening at each end that can be drawn back to reveal the nocks/piles for shooting / removal of the arrows.
There are examples of the spacers from the Mary Rose.
The majority of archers are shown with arrows just tucked in thier belts or stuck in the ground by thier feet.
Other referances refure to arrows being transported in barrels (100 years war) posibbly with the piles in separate barrels to the fletched shafts, being assembled on the march / prior to battles at need.
If I get time I'll see if I can find more / specific referances...
Be bright,bebold
Fillionous
There are examples of the spacers from the Mary Rose.
The majority of archers are shown with arrows just tucked in thier belts or stuck in the ground by thier feet.
Other referances refure to arrows being transported in barrels (100 years war) posibbly with the piles in separate barrels to the fletched shafts, being assembled on the march / prior to battles at need.
If I get time I'll see if I can find more / specific referances...
Be bright,bebold
Fillionous
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It's possible that one of the archers you saw with a very posh leather quiver at Tintagel was our daughter. My husband made the quiver and the girl was using it for convenience during the archery competition rather than as 'authentic' kit.
But to open a can of worms
I'd be surprised if skirmishing archers didn't have quivers of some sort other than the bag type. The bag and/or arrows shoved in the belt really are a pain if you're doing a roving shoot or skirmishing as opposed to 'battle formation' archery.
But to open a can of worms

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- Brother Ranulf
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In describing Welsh kit, Gerald of Wales uses the expression "handfuls of arrows" - the Welsh were noted for their guerilla, skirmishing and ambush tactics and there is no evidence (pictorial, linguistic or archaeological) that they ever used quivers of any kind.
I recently pulled together all known 12th century depictions of archers (almost all huntsmen rather than military archers) in Anglo-Norman sources (in manuscripts, stone carvings, ivory, bone and antler carvings etc) and not one carries a quiver.
I would be interested to see any new evidence for quivers, but I suspect that they are simply "wishful thinking".
I recently pulled together all known 12th century depictions of archers (almost all huntsmen rather than military archers) in Anglo-Norman sources (in manuscripts, stone carvings, ivory, bone and antler carvings etc) and not one carries a quiver.
I would be interested to see any new evidence for quivers, but I suspect that they are simply "wishful thinking".
Brother Ranulf
"Patres nostri et nos hanc insulam in brevi edomuimus in brevi nostris subdidimus legibus, nostris obsequiis mancipavimus" - Walter Espec 1138
"Patres nostri et nos hanc insulam in brevi edomuimus in brevi nostris subdidimus legibus, nostris obsequiis mancipavimus" - Walter Espec 1138
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Sadly, you're probably rightBrother Ranulf wrote:In describing Welsh kit, Gerald of Wales uses the expression "handfuls of arrows" - the Welsh were noted for their guerilla, skirmishing and ambush tactics and there is no evidence (pictorial, linguistic or archaeological) that they ever used quivers of any kind.
Are there pictoral references for Welsh skirmishers?
I recently pulled together all known 12th century depictions of archers (almost all huntsmen rather than military archers) in Anglo-Norman sources (in manuscripts, stone carvings, ivory, bone and antler carvings etc) and not one carries a quiver.
Have you by any chance done the same for 13th and early 14th too as they're more my time of interest?
I would be interested to see any new evidence for quivers, but I suspect that they are simply "wishful thinking".

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- Brother Ranulf
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There are a very few depictions of Welsh archers, but they are mostly later medieval - a famous manuscript illustration and very few carvings in churches, with Norman influence.
Sorry, I can't help with 13th or 14th century stuff - you are dealing with a rabid twelfth centuryist (no such word, but you know what mean!)
Sorry, I can't help with 13th or 14th century stuff - you are dealing with a rabid twelfth centuryist (no such word, but you know what mean!)

Brother Ranulf
"Patres nostri et nos hanc insulam in brevi edomuimus in brevi nostris subdidimus legibus, nostris obsequiis mancipavimus" - Walter Espec 1138
"Patres nostri et nos hanc insulam in brevi edomuimus in brevi nostris subdidimus legibus, nostris obsequiis mancipavimus" - Walter Espec 1138
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Re: Question for the archers among us
There's a few quivers & such at http://larsdatter.com/archers.htm -- can't remember for sure whether any (other than the Mary Rose arrow-bag) were specifically English.
The Osprey book on the English Archer has a lot of pics of quivers of all types, many of which are photos of original c15th paintings.
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- gregory23b
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Nice pics as always Karen. 
A lot are 'foreign' ie, they are of a foreign or historical (or both) context, hence the recurve bow and arrow quiver, they were used, but not as such by say, English, they would not conform to the requirements.
"I'd be surprised if skirmishing archers didn't have quivers of some sort other than the bag type."
A 3 foot arrow is not the easiest thing to draw from a quiver, certainly a back quiver is not that convenient, an English arrow is particularly long in comparison. It would seem that many of our battles were somewhat static until the formations advanced on each other.
Also, do the Schilling Chronicles not offer the possibility of the belt arrows slightly tied in as well? Some dim recollection scratches at me.
----
Ref, the wicker baskets, where is the source for that? The bags seem right, again as per the Schilling Chronicles, where they show English arches with what appear to be bags, although they could be simplified cone shapes to show the actual shape of the arrows when in the belt, ie the sketch lines. I see wicker baskets on sale, but not been given a source for them, they make sense, but even so, any ideas?

A lot are 'foreign' ie, they are of a foreign or historical (or both) context, hence the recurve bow and arrow quiver, they were used, but not as such by say, English, they would not conform to the requirements.
"I'd be surprised if skirmishing archers didn't have quivers of some sort other than the bag type."
A 3 foot arrow is not the easiest thing to draw from a quiver, certainly a back quiver is not that convenient, an English arrow is particularly long in comparison. It would seem that many of our battles were somewhat static until the formations advanced on each other.
Also, do the Schilling Chronicles not offer the possibility of the belt arrows slightly tied in as well? Some dim recollection scratches at me.
----
Ref, the wicker baskets, where is the source for that? The bags seem right, again as per the Schilling Chronicles, where they show English arches with what appear to be bags, although they could be simplified cone shapes to show the actual shape of the arrows when in the belt, ie the sketch lines. I see wicker baskets on sale, but not been given a source for them, they make sense, but even so, any ideas?
middle english dictionary
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- gregory23b
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But more interesting still:
http://tarvos.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server ... 001209.JPG
per Karen's link, check out the shoe soles, top left...
http://tarvos.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server ... 001209.JPG
per Karen's link, check out the shoe soles, top left...
middle english dictionary
Isabela on G23b "...somehow more approachable in real life"
http://medievalcolours.blogspot.com
"I know my place." Alice the Huswyf
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