Why can't academic historians ever get it right?

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Why can't academic historians ever get it right?

Postby zauberdachs » Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:00 pm

The reason I ask is that I've got a copy of a book by Mr Chris Brown published 2006 (ISBN 0752438123). Chris Brown is an Academic who has attended a large number of re-enactments and is, in my experience of his general conversation and his academic work, someone who is outspoken about "getting it right" and undermining common misconceptions.

Imagine my surprise at flicking through the photo section of his book, where we have many images taken from re-enactment, and I was confronted with a wide selection of wang and dubious statements including:

"detail of a chainmail hood - note that the links are butted together rather than being riveted. Butted mail, being much cheaper, was probably more common than rivet mail."

he comments that:

"a jack like this might have been worn on top of chain mail as a protection against arrows"

and then a few pages later states

"a good quality jack gave good protection against blows but comparatively little against cuts"

which seems odd. That the same jack was good against piecing from arrows and yet didn't protect against cuts...

Anyway, throughout his pictures there are Spangen Helms in every picture and above the caption "even very poor men were expected to have a bow and spear" there is a picture of a group of iron age or dark age re-enactors with spectacle helms, trousers and round shields with various geometric patterns. You would have to be very poor indeed to be almost 500 years out of date...

Now, he's been to many re-enactments and has displayed a high level of rigorousness in his academic work. How come his knowledge of the use of artefacts is such pants?


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Postby Nigel » Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:18 pm

this I ahve to see


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Postby Fox » Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:45 pm

You should probably say that the book is called The Second Scottish Wars of Independence otherwise some of your objections make no sense.

For instance:
detail of a chainmail hood - note that the links are butted together rather than being riveted. Butted mail, being much cheaper, was probably more common than rivet mail.
This is sort of true [not sure if cheapness is the reason] at certain times in history in certain places, but not true [I don't think] for medieval Scotland.

a jack like this might have been worn on top of chain mail as a protection against arrows

Does he mean the combination?

Anyway the rest sounds quite horrific.



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Postby RTB » Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:09 pm

Have you written to him and told him?


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Postby Tuppence » Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:25 pm

"a jack like this might have been worn on top of chain mail as a protection against arrows"


hate to say it, but at some dates he's probably right on this one - paddin was worn over mail some of the time (it tended to chop and change a bit - 14th c springs to mind as the period it was probably most common).

"detail of a chainmail hood - note that the links are butted together rather than being riveted. Butted mail, being much cheaper, was probably more common than rivet mail."


likewise at some dates this was also probably fairly acurate. though in this instance it sounds more like he's choosing his words to suit the picture he had.


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Postby nathan » Tue Oct 02, 2007 8:26 am

Fox wrote:For instance:
detail of a chainmail hood - note that the links are butted together rather than being riveted. Butted mail, being much cheaper, was probably more common than rivet mail.
This is sort of true [not sure if cheapness is the reason] at certain times in history in certain places, but not true [I don't think] for medieval Scotland.


Fox, do you want to expand on that?

(please feel free to exclude post C18th indo-persia as butted mail is a given once firearms become a big deal over that way).

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Postby zauberdachs » Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:11 am

Quite right fox, it occurred to me last night after I'd gone home. The book is set in the period 1332 to 1370.

The point about mail is that I don't think any mail from the medieval that survives is butted. His reasoning is also flawed. Mail is expensive butted or not. Butted mail will protect you against gentle slashes. Riveted mail gives you protection against substantial slashes, trusts, arrows etc. If you are going to go to the expense of mail you will have it riveted otherwise you will have a much cheaper good quality jack which will offer you the same level of protection as the butted mail.

The point about jacks was that a jack good enough to protect you from long bow arrows will be good enough to protect you from slashes also. Sure it'll get cut up but you wont.

As for spangen helms and the like in the mid to late fourteenth century, well, that's just stoopid.


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Postby zauberdachs » Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:18 am

An well presented test on the defensive properties of jacks and mail:

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread ... light=test


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Postby Jim » Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:27 am

Talking of mail, there is a mail shirt on display in the Hussite museum in Tabor, which not only appears to be made of butted rings, but the rings themselves are absolutely tiny and so filligree-looking that the whole thing would probably fall apart if you so much as showed it a blade. The thing was very ragged and full of tears and rents. I can only imagine it must have been ceremonial or in some other way not meant for the battlefield, it would have given next to no protection and would have lasted about five minutes.

I was given to understand butted mail was a reenactorism but it would appear not. Bizarre that, because butted mail falls to bits all the time, and unless you're very handy with some spare links and two pairs of pliers after every single battle, you'll soon end up with an expensive bit of metal rag. I can't imagine a shirt of butted mail surviving long enough to get handed down from father to son like rivetted must have...


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Postby Phil the Grips » Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:00 am

Not all mail was for the battlefield- you had privy armour too, designed to be worn under clothes like a modern covert stab vest. Brigandines were also use din theis manner.

Personally I think butted mail is horrible and is very unlikely to have existed in the past (post-pre Roman where it is accounted) as it doesn't do the job asked of it.

On the publishing- authors are often also at the mercy of their editors who may go "I have some photos for you to caption" leaving the author with crappy stock (and therefore cheap) library shots to fudge into the text. You can see it in early Osprey books in the commentaries where the artist has drawn summat that is odd and the author is trying to fudge it and makes a backhanded comment.

Also, just cos someone knows about battles doesn't mean they know about the minutia (I am the other way round- I know about objects and datelines but have no idea about the politics and reasoning behind most battles I portray), go to the first expert they google and can get fed a load of rubbish (especially in Scotland as most of us will have experience of the most vocal and visible "experts" ;)) which they take on trust. You see it all the time on telly documentaries and the like.


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Postby Tuppence » Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:14 am

I don't think any mail from the medieval that survives is butted

the royal armouries have a bit in a filing case in one of their reserve rooms.

apparently medieval based on what it was found near, but because it's just fragments, some quite small, it's impossible to say what it was actually used for.
don't remember which bit of medieval though (it was years ago, and I was there to look at leather stuff, so not paying that much attention).

the guy I spoke to reckoned butted mail was much more common than some people think, but couldn't tell for the above reason how much of it was for fighting, and how much for other purposes.


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Postby Jim » Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:20 am

Tuppence wrote:the guy I spoke to reckoned butted mail was much more common than some people think, but couldn't tell for the above reason how much of it was for fighting, and how much for other purposes.


If I was a medieval soldier there is no way in hell I'd entrust my wellbeing to a shirt of butted mail. I find it very hard to accept the stuff would have been used on the field at all. It needs perpetual repair as any regular user of the stuff will attest.


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Postby Tuppence » Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:47 am

doesn't it depend on the circumstance though?

butted shirt is better than no shirt?

saying you wouldn't trust it surely assumes you have the choice.


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Postby zauberdachs » Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:49 am

Phil the Grips wrote:On the publishing- authors are often also at the mercy of their editors who may go "I have some photos for you to caption" leaving the author with crappy stock (and therefore cheap) library shots to fudge into the text.


Unfortunately not in this case as these are all the authors photos. He was travelling around a lot of Scottish re-enactments a few years ago taking photos (he took photos of my shoes). These are the ones he has selected as most representative.


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Postby Phil the Grips » Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:52 am

zauberdachs wrote: He was travelling around a lot of Scottish re-enactments a few years ago taking photos

See! There's the answer... :twisted:

Seriously- again it's folk taking reenacmtnet to be "true" and taking image sout of context. Somewhat like taking a production of Hamlet and claiming "that is what Medieval Denmark looked like" without considering all the other factors involved.


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Postby zauberdachs » Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:53 am

Tuppence wrote:doesn't it depend on the circumstance though?

butted shirt is better than no shirt?

saying you wouldn't trust it surely assumes you have the choice.


Well yes and no. It would be extra weight that you would have to cart around and would slow you down on the field for little extra protection. If someone offered me a butted shirt for free, as a re-enactor, I would turn them down as I'd never actually use it on the field.

If you actually had to pay for it, I'd certainly refuse.

Recently I sold off my butted mail shirt to buy a better quality jack for this precise reason. My "proper" jack actually offers better protection that my previous aketon/mail combo.


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Postby PaulMurphy » Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:57 am

Jim wrote:If I was a medieval soldier there is no way in hell I'd entrust my wellbeing to a shirt of butted mail. I find it very hard to accept the stuff would have been used on the field at all. It needs perpetual repair as any regular user of the stuff will attest.


It depends very much on the quality of the mail, and the way it has been treated. I bought one of the first mail shirts made by Armour Class, which was hardened and tempered by them as part of the production process - basically, you heat it carefully and then drop it into an oil bath. As well as making it filthy, this makes the individual rings stronger, and as a result I've replaced probably about 50 rings in the shirt (3/4 length, half sleeves) over the last 18 years.

Many people make butted mail from wire, and use whatever they can get their hands on, with the result that in many cases I've seen, the weight of the rings is enough to pull themselves apart. That sounds like your experience - not enough strength in the ring to withstand its own weight.

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Postby histrenact » Tue Oct 02, 2007 11:09 am

Jim wrote:If I was a medieval soldier there is no way in hell I'd entrust my wellbeing to a shirt of butted mail. I find it very hard to accept the stuff would have been used on the field at all. It needs perpetual repair as any regular user of the stuff will attest.


Jim, you have mentioned this twice now which is interesting. Not from a historical POV but I first made my butted mail shirt about 1989ish and have worn it ever since, always out of site beneath whatever I have been wearing over it. The only mod was to first shorten and then remove the arms when I started wearing plate arms and as the plate changed as it tended to catch under the plate, would expect that to mean that it is not authenty in anyway but not the point here.

As I say historical or not is not my question. I *do* have to darn it on occasion and give it a complete once over every couple of years or so but, I am afraid, over that nearly twenty year period of robust reenactment use I cannot say that I agree that it needs perpetual repair.

If it is of importance it started life as 1.2mm galvanised fencing wire (no galvanising left now of course!) wound around 9mm dowling and cut to rings then butted, not even sprung steel washers here......

Thinking about it I wonder if there is any give/springyness/something in the wire that makes it tend to hold together? I am not saying that I do not loose rings on occasion though.

IIRC wire was extruded in period. Would be interested if extanct examples are make of extruded wire in a similar fashion or of stamped rings or both types used individually or together?

Take care

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Postby RottenCad » Tue Oct 02, 2007 11:09 am

But given the relative forces involved, and that we believe maille to have been worn under padding, wouldn't butted maille be ideal as the mid-layer?

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Postby histrenact » Tue Oct 02, 2007 11:13 am

PaulMurphy wrote:It depends very much on the quality of the mail, and the way it has been treated. I bought one of the first mail shirts made by Armour Class, which was hardened and tempered by them as part of the production process - basically, you heat it carefully and then drop it into an oil bath. As well as making it filthy, this makes the individual rings stronger


This was all the rage when I first made mine, hang over a bucket of car sump oil, heat with a blow torch until red and drop into the oil. Never did it with mine though but people swore by it at the time.........

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Postby zauberdachs » Tue Oct 02, 2007 11:18 am

why not butted mail?

1. there are very very few (I personally know of none) from the medieval period in Northern Europe.

2. In real life conditions it's a cak form of protection. It can stop light cuts but otherwise doesn't protect against slabs, hard cuts or arrows.

ergo

3. It's unlikely to have been the most common form of armour as none of it survives coupled with the logic that it would have been too expensive and labour intensive to be done so badly. You wouldn't spend all that time and effort making something that won't protect you any better than a good jack.
Last edited by zauberdachs on Tue Oct 02, 2007 11:22 am, edited 1 time in total.


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Postby Jim » Tue Oct 02, 2007 11:20 am

Well I used to have a shirt of butted mail - it was pretty cheap and was made of wire rather than flat rings, so perhaps my experience shows simply that cheap butted mail sucks.

Anyway, my better half and I were given to believe that butted mail wasn't authentic and we have since sold the butted and moved over to rivetted.

I can accept that there is quality butted mail out there that may well be a lot hardier, but what's the generally accepted wisdom on the prevalence of butted versus rivetted? Which do we think was de rigeur? Was it a case of butted for the plebs and rivetted for lords? Or what?


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Postby Phil the Grips » Tue Oct 02, 2007 11:42 am

Noone really knows.

Plate armour gets all the flash and cash for research so until the Holy Way of Erik D Schmitt gets followed and people fund research into realising that mail is as varied as plate in terms of region,date, manufacture, composition etc and does the legwork to write about it (though the Mail Research Journal does what it can) it will be a great big mystery in the main.


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Postby zauberdachs » Tue Oct 02, 2007 11:49 am

Anyway back to the original point, why can't academic historians do good history in this respect? Why don't they treat it with the same rigour they show their written sources?


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Postby Rochester » Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:34 pm

Lots of mail in the Wallace collection http://www.wallacecollection.org/index.php, rivetted medieval European stuff (including pants :shock: ) and butted tiny rings on the Middle Eastern/Indian stuff from later periods. As has been said, lots of variety depending on when and where it comes from.


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Postby Chris, yclept John Barber » Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:36 pm

[quote="histrenact]I first made my butted mail shirt about 1989ish... I *do* have to darn it on occasion and give it a complete once over every couple of years or so but, I am afraid, over that nearly twenty year period of robust reenactment use I cannot say that I agree that it needs perpetual repair.

David D.[/quote]

I'd agree: it depends on the quality of the wire used. My butted hauberk (integral mittens, below knee-length) is about 20 years old, takes some rigorous use, and hardly ever needs even one link replacing. I've never claimed to a MOP that it was authentic, but always explained the difference between medieval metal's quality control, which gave variable strength to the links and therefore rivetting was essential, to modern manufacturing, which gives us reliable quality metal which holds the holes in their right places. I'd never even heard of any medieval butted mail.

As to the original question, I suspect it's that it's not so easy to get definitive answers - you will find re-enactors who will justify their kit regardless of how tenuous their research. An historian specialising in, say, the legal system and court rolls of Henry II, is no more likely to know the provenance of spangenhelms than I understand the rules of tennis. He (or she) probably doesn't have a handy Osprey for the appropriate period on his desk, and so accepts the fact that the re-enactors are wearing something as an indication that they've probably done research into the armour of the period, and that's what they wore.

It could be the whole butted-mail thing started in exactly that way: the academic saw a pic of a re-enactor in butted mail, asked someone about it, and got a reply along the lines of "Well, they could do rivetted, but it was more expensive, so a low-class man at arms like me would have been wearing the cheaper butted."


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Postby Colin MacDonald » Wed Oct 03, 2007 9:10 am

Ah, mea culpa. I feature in some of the images in that book. The weird 'squinty eyed' look on my face when I'm stringing a bow is that earlier that week I'd had one snap at the tip and smack me painfully in the face while being strung, so I was cringing a bit, not trying to look 'ard. ;)

As some background, Chris turned up at a Caerlavrock show on the afternoon before the event looking for subjects to photograph. There were very few people there with kit when he showed up, so I threw on everything that I had with me in various combinations and did some posing. The quality of some of the kit on display is therefore my responsibility.

The limited nature of the pictures are unfortunate happenstance. Chris's commentary on them, and the decision about whether to portray them as being truly representative of the period are his choices.

I'm not offering an opinion, just filling in some of the back story.

What I will say is that Chris is a very pleasant and reasonable chap who does make the effort to turn up and try things out himself, and I'm sure he'd be delighted to discuss any concerns or issues you have about this book.



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Postby zauberdachs » Wed Oct 03, 2007 9:56 am

Colin MacDonald wrote:What I will say is that Chris is a very pleasant and reasonable chap who does make the effort to turn up and try things out himself, and I'm sure he'd be delighted to discuss any concerns or issues you have about this book.


Aye, I know, I chatted to him at length at previous re-enactments. I think I'm just disappointed because I'd got it into my head that he really really knew his stuff.

It's disappointing because in his books he makes a point of debunking the myths, legends and hearsay of Scottish history with cold hard primary evidence.

Do "serious" academic historians not take it seriously and think that they do not have to apply the same rigour that they would to their literary sources?


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Postby Fox » Wed Oct 03, 2007 10:49 am

nathan wrote:
Fox wrote:For instance:
detail of a chainmail hood - note that the links are butted together rather than being riveted. Butted mail, being much cheaper, was probably more common than rivet mail.
This is sort of true [not sure if cheapness is the reason] at certain times in history in certain places, but not true [I don't think] for medieval Scotland.


Fox, do you want to expand on that?

(please feel free to exclude post C18th indo-persia as butted mail is a given once firearms become a big deal over that way).

N.


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Postby Alan_F » Wed Oct 03, 2007 3:01 pm

Ben, Chris Brown is a very approachable fellow, he's currently based at St Andrew's University and I'm sure he would appreciate a letter if you felt like writing and asking him about this.


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