Joined or seperate hoes, and other questions.

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Alan E
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Post by Alan E »

Gandi wrote:
Alan E wrote:Marriage of the Virgin, Master of the Tiburtine Sybil piccy - reminds me of G's miner, I think that's the same type of hose over the shoe !
No Alan, even in the scanning 'wrinkle 2' and clearly on the 'original' i scanned, the hose don't go over the shoe (it's likely that they are a mule type of footware from the picture)
From the scanned image it looked to me as if the heel of the L foot was behind the black shape that is the shoe... obviously you can see the originl better than I can so Nolo Contendre 8)
Gandi wrote: I like the Saville row/provincial tailor analogy re the fit, but disagree with your thoughts on split leg vs joined hose and the skill of the tailor. It's not 'till the C16 that the top of the hose come over the widest point of the hips and therefore need shaping to fit over the *rse. Up till then, the difference between the two is essentially 1 seam and a codpiece, not massively difficult.

I agree that they may have made them looser in the seat (so to speak) but merely for comfort and convenience, not through any inate lack of skill IMO.
That's how mine got joined (the first pair I made, second item of clothing I made ...); not difficult I agree, but leaves out a gusset that is included in a pattern ostensibly derived from a surviving pair (of B.P.? Haven't got the book with me - was Medieval Costume and Fashion by Herbert Norris). Actually I left out a gusset in the side of the foot too, but can get a good fit still by lacing the side ( :( no evidence for that though). These don't reach the hips but rely on points and have to be left baggy to allow me to sit without splitting them; they have other problems around the join as well which would have been mitigated by including a gusset.
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Gandi
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Post by Gandi »

i was about to type that i can't recall having seen a gusset clearly shown on a pair of hose in art, but i've a nagging feeling i probably have. Certainly the guys from the White Co. waaaay back that first showed me a method of making hose used gussets in the rear and all their research at the time was top notch.

Most images though shown no gusset, with each leg being made from 1 piece of cloth, with a piece for the sole if they're footed. It certainly is much easier that way than fiddling about with gusset pieces; although fiddling with gussets can be quite fun sometimes :wink:

As for the splitting problem, most are caused as i mentioned earlier, with trying to interact with modern furniture as it's much lower usually than period pieces. The same can be said for repro stuff that's based on images and not having studied the real thing.

A lot of the problems can also be reduced by making sure that the 'X point' (theres no phrase for it) where the seam between the 2 legs and the codpiece join is RIGHT up as far as it can get without it turning proctological!

Lacing on the side of the foot is found on later stockings, but i've never seen it on hosiery either
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gregory23b
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Post by gregory23b »

at the time was top notch.


at the time, not sure if that bumped later as a guess or not.

There is a picture in one of the Talhoffer books showing the two parts of the 'jump' suit however it does not show enough (any) detail as to seams. dammit.
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Gandi
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Post by Gandi »

Just had a quick trawl through a couple of books for images of seams for you G23B, these 2 came up straight away and are easy to see.

It would be my guess that the early W/Co info MAY have mistaken the crease at the bottom of the arsecheek as a seam and gone from there???
Attachments
detail 'The Bearing of the Cross' ca 1480
detail 'The Bearing of the Cross' ca 1480
detail 'The Martyrdom of the Ten Thousand Christians' A Durer, 1497-98
detail 'The Martyrdom of the Ten Thousand Christians' A Durer, 1497-98
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gregory23b
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Post by gregory23b »

yeah i meant seams for gussets, back seams are al lover the shop, felmish and italians, sorry for lack of clarity, hangover has goen ,honest.

not sure a gusset is needed, s it?
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Gandi
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Post by Gandi »

are you sure about the hangover?? :)

not sure a gusset is needed, s it?
not in my opinion no. It would seem to be 'reverse engineering' to a certain extent , making it more complicated than it needs to be.
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gregory23b
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Post by gregory23b »

well maybe not then judging by my previous typing hash.
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Gandi
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Post by Gandi »

good job i'm reasonable fluent in 'drunkese' isn't it :wink:
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Alan E
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Post by Alan E »

gregory23b wrote: not sure a gusset is needed, s it?
Well I'm not going to insist on one, since I got away without :P
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gregory23b
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Post by gregory23b »

Wel lanyway I found the jumpsuit pic I mentioned previously.

You can see there is a whopping girt gusste under the doublet part, presumably to stop it riding up with wear when the judicial combat occurs, you will get better lift if you grapple too, mega wedgy!!

Note how everything is pointed to everything else, inc the hood.
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talk about gussets
talk about gussets
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Zachos
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Post by Zachos »

I suppose the use of lots of points was to stop stuff falling off and flapping around during battle or strenuous work. They could obviously make trousers that stayed up themselves, because their braes did.
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gregory23b
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Post by gregory23b »

Zachos, yes in asmuch as the above outfit is specifically for judicial combat, trial by fighting, big in Austria and Germany at the time, the unusual thing about it is the gusset under the doublet and the pointing of the hood to the doublet, presumably to keep them on whilst the fight is under way.

Pointing hoods to doublets is pretty much non-existent other than the above specific use, which is why I mentioned it, in keeping with the other images.

Re the breeches, yes they made them stay up with a cord, but that does not mean that automatically hose are made the same way, fashion has dictated other imperatives, why the doublet should be joined to the hose is to me a bit of a mystery. Indeed why not make hose with a draw string as they could easily? Maybe a costumier could care to chip in on that.
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mally ley
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Post by mally ley »

gregory23b wrote:a whopping girt gusste under the doublet part
Jorge - I wouldn't call that a gusset (or even a gusste). To my mind a gusset is a square piece of fabirc, put in so the bias of the fabirc adds stretch where seams would otherwise be put under stress . . . waits for the real costume people to put her straight . . . :wink:
There were WCo hose (ye Gods, thinking about it it is nearly 20 years ago) with gussets between the legs at Gandi's "x point' - Himself got his first pair from Chiefy which had a gusset like that, but I think it was just lateral thinking - trying to find a solution to the problem of ripped seams - rather than anything based in research.
Maybe this is where hand stitiching rather than machine sewing would be an advantage on a hidden seam. It was once explained to me how/why hand stitching is stronger:
If you think about how a machine stitch is made you end up with a single thread looped through another single thread - the loop usually being hidden between the two layers of fabric. You only need to break a single thread for the stitching to come undone.
Hand sewing, especially if you use a double thread and use back stitch, is much harder to break. The person who explained it to me (Keith Bartlett I think) said the fabric is more likely to give way before the stitching goes.
Zachos wrote:They could obviously make trousers that stayed up themselves, because their braes did.
Braes are pulled tight with a cord - like modern pyjama trousers, or the like. The two things that help them stay up is that as the fabric is much thinner than lined wool hose it is easier to pull them tighter and there much less acting to pull them down than on a heavier, full leg length (or even footed) pair of hose.
If the braes are being worn with split leg hose, the hose are attached to the doublet/pourpoint/whatever and can not pull the braes down. thankfully :shock:

BTW, I'm assuming that when you're all talking about "hips" you actually mean hip-bone height, not the fattest part of the top of the leg :?

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Alice the Huswyf
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Post by Alice the Huswyf »

Would this suit for judicial combat be the Tallhoffer one, where a woman who felt strongly enough about it to cross-dress in public could take a 10 1b stone in a veil and try against male defendant who was handicapped by standing up to his waist in a hole, but holding a cudgel.

If so , that would explain your 'gusset', also the need to tie everything together ever so well, and possibly the close fitting hood which is styled more on the fitted coifs nuns wore until the later part of the last century.

The insistence that women essentially appeared covered but actaully revealing most of their form in public would be a VERY clever way of making sure that the opportunity to trial by combat by a woman on her own behalf was not taken up.

Therefore I suggest that as a source it is singular rather than regular and not really proving any point here when taken out of that context.


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Post by Alice the Huswyf »

Would this suit for judicial combat be the Tallhoffer one, where a woman who felt strongly enough about it to cross-dress in public could take a 10 1b stone in a veil and try against male defendant who was handicapped by standing up to his waist in a hole, but holding a cudgel.

If so , that would explain your 'gusset', also the need to tie everything together ever so well, and possibly the close fitting hood which is styled more on the fitted coifs nuns wore until the later part of the last century.

The insistence that women essentially appeared covered but actaully revealing most of their form in public would be a VERY clever way of making sure that the opportunity to trial by combat by a woman on her own behalf was not taken up.

Therefore I suggest that as a source it is singular rather than regular and not really proving any point here when taken out of that context.


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Post by gregory23b »

The context of that suit is purely the context in which it occurs, ie the talhoffer judical combat (and others similar), no claim to make anything more than that.

It was another example of specialist garb that is 'doublet and hose'.
Were trials by combat choice issues?


mally- I only call that a gusset as it joins the front and back of the doublet via the undercarriage, not sure what the actual name of that would be, built in underpants???
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mally ley
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Post by mally ley »

gregory23b wrote:I only call that a gusset as it joins the front and back of the doublet via the undercarriage, not sure what the actual name of that would be, built in underpants???
Reverse braces :?:

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gregory23b
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Post by gregory23b »

Wedgie straps???
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mally ley
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Post by mally ley »

OOwwwww :!: :!:

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Post by Phil the Grips »

There is an account, that I am trying to remember details of, for getting ready for a relevant trial by combat of the period where they are stitched into their clothes (and ashes rubbed on their palms for grip when sweaty and sugar put in their mouths to absorb excess saliva ) to make them a snug fit to avoid snagging and to keep them on while rolling around.

It's probably from "martial arts of ren. Europe" by sidney Anglo.
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Post by Alice the Huswyf »

Think of it more as a double modesty protector: the origin of man being covered (bearing in mind that women did not wear nether-garments respectably until the regency) and also anchoring the doublet so that in the event of laces snapping, the reservoirs de maternite are not uncoverd either: the hood keeps the hair covered and out of the way and perhaps allows for some minimal head protection.
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Post by WhiteWolf »

Ok peeps

Loads of great info coming from this topic.

But what I need is info for early hose, up until we won a set @ the Fayre we thought they shaped into a 'inverse V' at the front, but the ones from Black Swan had the 'V' at the side.

Now we is confuddled.

Help, with pics - to ease my bwain.

WW 8)

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Gandi
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Post by Gandi »

WW can you post a piccy so we can see what you mean?
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WhiteWolf
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Post by WhiteWolf »

Gandi wrote:WW can you post a piccy so we can see what you mean?
hi Gandi

The ones we won are here http://www.historicenterprises.com/cart ... l&p=96&c=6

Before this we had thought the were pointed straight up the front of the legs.

WW 8)

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Alice the Huswyf
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Post by Alice the Huswyf »

I would go for a medium weight wool if I were you - less flammable, bit more stretch, rather more showerproof: you will be wearing these in a British Summer after all.

Single leg hose are seen with the tops laced on at the front, or at the side, or even at the front and back and often with the back top left hanging loose. Of course Alan wears his rolled down like ankle socks, but then he is the Naked Medieval Tango Man .........

Please add a picture of a teapot to your icon list. It would just be so bizarely pleasing as it flashed by for no apparent reason!
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