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Alan E
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Postby Alan E » Sun Nov 06, 2005 11:31 am

For those who want to make hose that fit and stay together, Sarah Thursfield (authoress of 'The Medieval Tailor's Assistant') is running practical (weekend) courses on dress in the spring ... including 'All about hose' in February; I don't know if there are places still available.


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Postby gregory23b » Sun Nov 06, 2005 12:35 pm

Ok I may not be wearing flared hose, that depends on what my main activity might be.

But flared hose were worn for different functions, the first pair is from an early 16th century picture called The Ore Washer 1521 by Hans Hesse, the man is wearing hose that instead of having tight cut feet have them flared over his shoes, like an integral gaiter. He is after all washing ore and the flares would reduce the amount of grit getting into his shoes. Technically out of the time frame of this thread, kind of. You might note his tucked in hood, this features in the miners from the Venus and Mars Hausbuch too.

The other is an earlier picture 1470-80 of a farmer/shepherd now images of tied on gaiters are reasonably common but this man is wearing flared hose. This is from a Poitier book of hours 1475-1480 - otherwise untitled.

If memory serves there is another one lurking around somewhere, if I find it I will dig it up.

I thought it might be an addition to the thread.
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orewashers.jpg
flared hose 1.jpg


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gregory23b
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Postby gregory23b » Sun Nov 06, 2005 1:04 pm

As has been pointed out to me by a friend I am being a little generous with the description of flared hose, any others would be most welcome.

The farmer, I concede, may well have straight cut hose that are gathered.

However the point is we have two ways of cutting hose with similar functions that we may have overlooked and in their own right are interesting.

Ok with that VS? :wink:


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Postby Alice the Huswyf » Tue Nov 08, 2005 7:52 am

Greggie , you are so last five minutes! Dontcha know flares are on their way out?



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gregory23b
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Postby gregory23b » Tue Nov 08, 2005 6:29 pm

Well it is the 70's


:D


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Postby guthrie » Tue Nov 08, 2005 9:01 pm

The 1470's!

And if you wait long enough, they'll be back in fashion!



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Postby Lena » Tue Nov 08, 2005 9:36 pm

gregory23b wrote:But flared hose were worn for different functions, the first pair is from an early 16th century picture called The Ore Washer 1521 by Hans Hesse, the man is wearing hose that instead of having tight cut feet have them flared over his shoes, like an integral gaiter. He is after all washing ore and the flares would reduce the amount of grit getting into his shoes. Technically out of the time frame of this thread, kind of. You might note his tucked in hood, this features in the miners from the Venus and Mars Hausbuch too.


I'm actually not so sure they are flared. It looks more like normal hose worn with "landsknecht shoes" (Examples: http://www.st-max.org/todesengel_woodcuts.htm). Timewise it would fit with the fashion and region.



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Postby gregory23b » Tue Nov 08, 2005 9:49 pm

Lena - the hose go over the shoes, the overlap is pretty clear even on the picture, leading foot, back heel.

The shoes are as you say of the period but the hose are going over them, apologies for quality of scan, it is from a printed book, Women in the Medieval Town, Ulrica Uitz, excellent book for European stuff on women.

but you can see the overlap.

It makes sense given his job.
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orewasherfoot close.jpg


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Alan E
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Postby Alan E » Wed Nov 09, 2005 10:43 am

Take some ordinary footed hose, remove the lower part of the foot with the toes (and edge the result) - you'd have hose that can be worn over shoes. An interesting discovery of a way to wear/adapt footed hose I think.

And is that a fastening around the ankle ?


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Postby gregory23b » Wed Nov 09, 2005 2:57 pm

yes quite simple and as someone pointed out to me via email they are very fitted hose, which given the job might seem like a bit of artistic licence to show fashion perhaps.

No, the scan is poor, it is merely a wrinkle in the cloth.

But if we cast back to the shepherd who has looser hose and essentially a gathered bottom they provide the same protection. Might be nice to see some manual worker types using them, you know lime mixers, rock smashers etc.


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Postby Alan E » Wed Nov 09, 2005 3:27 pm

gregory23b wrote:yes quite simple and as someone pointed out to me via email they are very fitted hose, which given the job might seem like a bit of artistic licence to show fashion perhaps.

Or maybe just a fashionable miner (that's a sieve, right?) ...
gregory23b wrote:No, the scan is poor, it is merely a wrinkle in the cloth..

T@rn@tion, ankle fastenings are the only way I can get the ones I made to sit tightly :cry:
gregory23b wrote:But if we cast back to the shepherd who has looser hose and essentially a gathered bottom they provide the same protection. Might be nice to see some manual worker types using them, you know lime mixers, rock smashers etc.

Bottom of the range footless hose (or foot worn through), tied to prevent ticks etc ascending his legs (they climb upwards, to reach the skin under fur :evil: ) ?


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Postby gregory23b » Wed Nov 09, 2005 3:31 pm

Or maybe just a fashionable miner (that's a sieve, right?) ...


possibly, what do your instincts tell you about fashion and the dirty trades?

yep the tick thing, apparently so, and also to minimise nonsense falling into your shoe, if not a shepherd, the gaiters seem to be on a range of farmer types.

re the wrinkling, two things maybe the image is representing a too good an image, ie as previously mentioned a bit of licence or that they are wrinkly, the image shows the wrinkles all over the footed section.


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Postby Alan E » Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:05 pm

gregory23b wrote:Or maybe just a fashionable miner (that's a sieve, right?) ...


possibly, what do your instincts tell you about fashion and the dirty trades?
.

Well, my bro-in-law builds fireplaces (or used to); would wear his trendy gear whilst mixing cement and cutting brick and stone :roll: , so I guess there's always some will want to be trendy
gregory23b wrote:....
re the wrinkling, two things maybe the image is representing a too good an image, ie as previously mentioned a bit of licence or that they are wrinkly, the image shows the wrinkles all over the footed section.

Yep, could be licence - whoever commisioned the picture may not have wanted those real, grubby, working types hanging on his wall ! So why show wrinkles at all (unless we shouldn't be trying to get rid of wrinkles - maybe worrying about wrinkles on hose is a Victorianism we haven't yet eliminated ?


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Postby gregory23b » Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:17 pm

"Well, my bro-in-law builds fireplaces (or used to); would wear his trendy gear whilst mixing cement and cutting brick and stone , so I guess there's always some will want to be trendy "

oh all right, 'in a medieval cash poor context then' mr picky picky. ;-P

As for the wrinkles at all, they would have existed on the 'posh' set so they are realistic in that sense perhaps.


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Postby Alice the Huswyf » Wed Nov 09, 2005 7:24 pm

My half hose are really well fitted - I can just get my foot through the ankle: they wrinkle in the same place as the picture.



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Postby lord roos » Wed Nov 09, 2005 8:31 pm

Alice the Huswyf wrote:My half hose are really well fitted - I can just get my foot through the ankle: they wrinkle in the same place as the picture.


And to think I'd thought they were holding folds of flesh :o :shock:

:wink:


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Postby Gandi » Wed Nov 09, 2005 10:10 pm

if you cut hose based on surviving fragments, ie: with the vamp in one piece with the leg, then that wrinkle is virtually inevitable.The only way to get rid of it completely is to have a seperate vamp piece and a lot of time spent in the fitting or a lot of luck.

I can't help think though that the concept of rich people having well fitted hose and poor people having poorly fitted hose is a little too modern, perhaps a case of applying our attitudes where we should not?

Certainly all of the well fitted hose i've made in the past allowed me to do everything that i would expext to do in them, from manual labour to sitting on my fat backside. True, you can't move in exactly the same way that you do in loose trousers but we really have little information on how people moved in the period. In fact the biggest problems come in trying to 'interact' with modern stuff; low chairs etc. Even wearing braces instead of a belt on trousers has a marked effect in how you move.

There's also the cost implication to consider. In an age when the cost of the cloth was more of a consideration than today, any saving would be important.

Just my 2p's worth, any thoughts?


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Postby Gandi » Wed Nov 09, 2005 11:03 pm

In the intervening minutes, had a quick scan through 3 or 4 books looking at hose in art (God i've got to get out more!). Yes, loose fitting hose do appear on a few working/lower class men, BUT by far the majority of both apparantly rich and poor are wearing well fitted hose (approx 80-90% of about 100 images of men were wearing well fitted hose.) A large proportion of those in loose hose, gathered at the ankle are either shepherds or haymaking, which would add weight to the anti-tick idea.

Yes, you could argue artistic licence, but if that is the case, then why do we belief anything that is represented in a painting? There has to be a case that the paintings do more often than not, represent real clothes rather than just idealised version thereof; if that was the case, then why show any imperfections at all?

Interestingly, the two example below show the complete opposite case; 'rich' people in cack hosiery! Just as interesting is the fact that they are both by the same artist, so in this case, there probably is some artistic detail that we're missing (I know, I know make up your mind man!!): Both are to be found in 'Early Dutch Painting' by Albert Chatlelet. Sorry about the poor quality scan, the image is right on the join at the centre of the book

Thoughts on a postcard, or alternatively this thread will do; undoubtably quicker and saves the cost of a stamp :)
Attachments
wrinkle 1.jpg
Crucifixion, Master of the Tiburtine Sybil
wrinkle 2.jpg
Marriage of the Virgin, Master of the Tiburtine Sybil


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Postby gregory23b » Wed Nov 09, 2005 11:56 pm

Moral, you can't get rid of all the wrinkles, no matter how hard you try.

;-


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Postby gregory23b » Thu Nov 10, 2005 12:04 am

the abov response was to Dame Alice, but I forgot to send it, so it is now there above not as a response to Gandi, although it in strange way still works, mmm I must get out more.

The thing is Ganders my old mucker, I thought of something really pertinent and very logical, a moment of clarity of you will on the way back from the restaurant from which I mentioned in our PM earlier previously even it was os clear it was an inspiration and in fact solved all of our image interpretation woes.

But in the intervening half hour from ambling along St Nicholas Street absently composing my next 'in the head wait until I get home, this is going to be a cracker' novel andgetting home, unsurprisingly it has left the buildng, it has got up from the table, paid for its drinks, stumbled and gone. The light of inspiration has been snuffed out by other things, bothered, am I? Borthjered Am I ? yes.


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Postby Gandi » Thu Nov 10, 2005 12:15 am

G23, think yourself lucky matey that you kept the thought that long, If i don't write down smart arsed comments, pertinent and witty repartee or salient points when i think of them, they're flushed out the cr***er with most of the rest of the stuff in my head in the blink of an

sorry, what was i saying?


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Postby Alice the Huswyf » Thu Nov 10, 2005 12:43 am

He is only jealous becuase his belly has so visibly migrated south for winter. He longs for merely baggy ankles! :mrgreen:


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Postby gregory23b » Thu Nov 10, 2005 10:21 am

whose belly Dame Alice?

If mine, how do you know????


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Postby Alan E » Thu Nov 10, 2005 10:48 am

Marriage of the Virgin, Master of the Tiburtine Sybil piccy - reminds me of G's miner, I think that's the same type of hose over the shoe ! Possibly an over-hose for winter wear or standing around in drafty churches at marriages ?

Regarding poor=baggy hose, I'd guess that this would be less true than poor = not so well made hose; more along the lines of the difference between a hand-made suit from your local town tailor (when they existed for more than alterations) compared to one from Saville Row. When split hose were 'evolving' into joined, I suspect this was largely driven in the more fashionable areas (more disposable income) and those with less money to spend went to hose-makers who were more used to making split hose: I suppose what I'm saying is that Clym from the Backwoods wouldn't be wearing hose cut as well around his @rse as the Black Prince (but they'd probably be as tight on the lower leg, because that wasn't changing).


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Postby gregory23b » Thu Nov 10, 2005 11:49 am

Makes sense mr E.

You do see a lot of looser hose round the lower limbs for agro types, but seemingly less so for the urbanites.


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Postby Gandi » Thu Nov 10, 2005 12:56 pm

Alan E wrote:Marriage of the Virgin, Master of the Tiburtine Sybil piccy - reminds me of G's miner, I think that's the same type of hose over the shoe !


No Alan, even in the scanning 'wrinkle 2' and clearly on the 'original' i scanned, the hose don't go over the shoe (it's likely that they are a mule type of footware from the picture)

I like the Saville row/provincial tailor analogy re the fit, but disagree with your thoughts on split leg vs joined hose and the skill of the tailor. It's not 'till the C16 that the top of the hose come over the widest point of the hips and therefore need shaping to fit over the *rse. Up till then, the difference between the two is essentially 1 seam and a codpiece, not massively difficult.

I agree that they may have made them looser in the seat (so to speak) but merely for comfort and convenience, not through any inate lack of skill IMO.


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Postby Vicky » Thu Nov 10, 2005 1:06 pm

Is there any evidence for rich people having silk hose? Silk is a lot less stretchy than wool, and so whilst being posh in terms of fabric, they would be compromised in terms of fit. Just a thought.



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Gandi
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Postby Gandi » Thu Nov 10, 2005 1:47 pm

only come across knitted silk for stockings/nether hose as opposed to cut silk cloth ones


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Postby Vicky » Thu Nov 10, 2005 1:48 pm

Makes sense!



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Postby Alice the Huswyf » Thu Nov 10, 2005 2:46 pm

At this point I could join in at an intellectual level, or I could do this:

Belly bel-ly beh-LLY! Belly bel-ly BEH-lly!



That felt goooooood.


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