Joined or seperate hoes, and other questions.

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Zachos
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Joined or seperate hoes, and other questions.

Postby Zachos » Wed Nov 02, 2005 8:20 pm

Not sure if thats ^ the right type of hoe, but there ya go.

I'm preparing to make my costume over the winter months and will obviously need to make some troosaires. What type of hoes would people recommend for fighting in the 14th/15th century? Is there much difference beyond appearance?

Also, what do people attach their hoes to when not wearing a doublet? I've done a bit of research and found that on period drawings/carvings a small amount of the braes drawstring is visible and the hoes are attached to this. The problem is, the pictures that I gleaned this information from are actually sketches of the originals, not photo's, and so it is hard to know exactly whether it is part of the braes or a seperate belt. What do people here do?

Lastly, for now, what do people use to lace their boots/shoes? The ones I have were provided with leather laces, which are quite tough and not hugely flexible. Is there something else that can be used that is more flexible and can give a tighter knot, but still period? I expect the leather will soften over time, but don't want them to be uncomfortable as I will need to fight in them.

Cheers for reading, Ill probably come up with more questions soon.


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Postby craig1459 » Wed Nov 02, 2005 8:56 pm

Hi Zachos
I'm WOTR and we generally wear one-piece hose. You can wear split (two piece) hose but they were going out by the end of the C15. Split hose are fixed to the braes.

One piece hose can be worn self-supporting depending on the construction but are aften secured to a "waistcoat", called a pourpoint, by points. I'm a newbie myself and find wearing this get up a nightmare - you have to untie the doublet, untie the hose from the pourpoint, untie the codpiece et cetera et cetera et cetera

Not sure if points were acceptable for tying shoes

You can wear boots with buckles - I am after a pair of calf boots myself and the laced version can take ages to sort out!


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Postby Handbag » Wed Nov 02, 2005 9:23 pm

you would need to be specific on your dates as 14th century hoes are normally two peice .its best to check with the group you are with they may have some rules depending what date you are portraying. to attach your hose you can wear a gypser which is a linen belt. - or just a standard leather one and tye the laces on.



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Postby Gandi » Wed Nov 02, 2005 9:27 pm

craig1459 wrote:Split hose are fixed to the braes.


No, they are pointed to the doublet the same as joined Craig. Early medieval hosiery is attatched to the braies.



One piece hose can be worn self-supporting depending on the construction


Not until the C16 really

Try taking the doublet and hoes off like a baby grow (billman grow if you like) :)


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Postby craig1459 » Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:09 pm

Gandi wrote:
craig1459 wrote:
One piece hose can be worn self-supporting depending on the construction


Not until the C16 really



Depends how tight you pull the points :)


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Zachos
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Postby Zachos » Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:20 pm

Does anyone have ideas on whats more comfortable to fight in?


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Postby Gandi » Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:24 pm

craig1459 wrote:
Gandi wrote:
craig1459 wrote:
One piece hose can be worn self-supporting depending on the construction


Not until the C16 really



Depends how tight you pull the points :)


Only in 're-enactor world' :twisted:


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Postby craig1459 » Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:28 pm

As opposed to the real world where everyone does everything by the book :wink:


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Postby mac (crucesignati) » Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:51 pm

Zachos

I once had a pair of one-piece hose, but now (due to period) always wear split hose. They are very, very easy and comfortable to fight in. The baggy breeches/brais (call them what you will) only serve to add to this comfort and also freedom!



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Postby guthrie » Wed Nov 02, 2005 11:13 pm

Do you mean single leg hose or split leg hose, not that I can think of many differences. Single leg hose for 14th century and earlier were apparently pointed to the braes or a belt or suchlike. By the later 14th century your into pointing them to doublets, and they were higher up the leg and encroaching upon the groin area. Then in the later 15th they were close to the hips but not quite self supporting as far as I am aware.



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Postby gregory23b » Wed Nov 02, 2005 11:46 pm

Craig what gandi is getting at is that the waist was lower in the 15th century than later so having the waist points done up would mean your hose would fall down, the waist rises at the end of the 15th century until we see the famous magic hose of the Breughel pictures of the 16th century.

it might be a seemingly minor detail but if it were an armour issue where someone was wearing a morion - there might be questions - but after all a helmet is a helmet, yes?

Magic hose are traditionally a lazy and misleading way of showing 15th C dress in WOTR reenactment - have been for years.

Hose are indeed attached to the doublet closed or open hose (joined and split to you lot) see various paintings to that effect right up to the 1480s - although closed hose would be the 'norm'.

14th c hose are attached to the breech (braies) very well portryaed on a number of sources - the cut is different too ie they are often under other garments so a full coverage of the rear is not needed as in open hose of the late 15th century.

I believe attachment to a belt (earlier) was also a possibility although wont claim 100% recall on that though.


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Postby craig1459 » Thu Nov 03, 2005 12:24 am

Thanks for that - very interesting. The sources from which I had taken my information were obviously dodgy. Of course having seen what I had read "in practice" then I had taken it to be correct.

"...must try harder..." :)


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Postby tonw » Thu Nov 03, 2005 9:41 am

It also depends on your legs and income up till this season i've bee eating my way through joined hoes because of my thunderous swimmer thighs the usual life span for said hoes was two maybe three hours if I were fighting during that or two shows if not.

At tweksbury this year I had split hoes, I'm still wearing and fighting in them now. which is a marked improvement over buying new ones every few shows for 40-60 quid

I did look at black swans but I can't afford 90 quid on the chance they won't wear through in a few shows


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Postby Scraggles » Thu Nov 03, 2005 9:46 am

Lots of soldiers on campaign had dysentry, so the split hose were very useful in that respects, also ona hot day, having a nice breeze to some place that is usually hot and sweaty.

Had a pair of very well researched hose made by the Roxanne De Sutton who assured me that the internal belt was perfectly authentic, the fact that they split in 3 places after being cut not on the bias is another thing :evil:

your group "should" know what is best and often they have their own rules :)



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Postby Zachos » Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:56 pm

Thanks for the replies so far.

As it happens my group is not always the best place to turn for authenticities sake, which is a shame, but something I hope to help out with.


Anyone got any ideas on the best type of helmet?

The shoes question hasn't quite been answered yet either.


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Postby craig1459 » Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:10 pm

Bascinets are the most associated with the early C15 (100YW). The Great Bascinet provides additional neck protection.

Sallets are most closely with the late C15 (i.e. WOTR) and have a tail which protects the neck. Sallets are either visored or open-face - my avatar shows me in a visored sallet with a belvoir to protect the throat.

A closed helmet called an armet could also be seen in the latter C15

Italian barbutes are seen on re-enactors but were, I believe, not actually that common in England.

Kettle hats are seen but are out-dated by WOTR period, so I have been told.


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Postby gregory23b » Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:18 pm

zachos laces and buckles and straps and long ties seem to have been used according to style and time frame. Suggest looking at Plantagenet Shoes web site, Morgan makes some of the best shoes in the business and they are hard wearing too, he now puts a double sole on pretty much all of his stuff.

You could always sole your hose and save yourself the worry...
Last edited by gregory23b on Thu Nov 03, 2005 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Postby Tee » Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:31 pm

If you're after using something other than leather as a lacing cord, what about using lucet cord....nice and strong and will actually hold a knot for a significant length of time (personal experience - kept finding that a knot using leather cord kept coming undone but not in the same way with lucet cord).


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Postby mac (crucesignati) » Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:50 pm

tonw wrote:...the usual life span for said hoes was two maybe three hours if I were fighting during that or two shows if not.

At tweksbury this year I had split hoes, I'm still wearing and fighting in them now. which is a marked improvement over buying new ones every few shows for 40-60 quid...


I must be doing something right - the seperate I hose I made myself have been the only pair I have ever had (apart from my brief period with a pair of joined hose early-on, er... that's not the only pair I have ever had then is it? Duh!) and I still use them now, they are about 8-9 years old. They are the pair that I fight in as well.



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Postby gregory23b » Thu Nov 03, 2005 5:02 pm

As for sallets a lot were imported from Germany and the Low countries so styles would vary. See the London import export rolls 1480 - Kate Tyler will have the link.

The Martyrdom of St Ursula shows a kettle hat, although trying to remember any more off top of head.

The Froissart Chronicles show a range of lids as does the Beauchamp Pageant (although late 15th C), the Hausbuch of Mars and Venus has some nice drawings fo German Harness and sallets of a few types - latter source more objectvely rendered than the former.

But isn't the term sallet generic in any case, much like harness really?


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Postby craig1459 » Thu Nov 03, 2005 5:55 pm

The Royal Armouries in Leeds as you might expect, has a range of shapes and styles of sallet. A particularly interesting one has been painted with an intricate chequered pattern - something you don't see on the re-enactment field. All re-enactment sallets appear to be shiny shiny!

They also have what some would describe as barbutes, but have been termed sallets presumably because of the curved section protecting the neck.

Sallet is a generic term but has acquired a specific meaning for the late medieval helmet. (or perhaps vice versa)

The classic German WWII soldier's helmet is, according to our captain, a type of sallet as is the Darth Vader helmet.


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Postby gregory23b » Thu Nov 03, 2005 6:07 pm

"The classic German WWII soldier's helmet is, according to our captain, a type of sallet as is the Darth Vader helmet."

and derivative of the German medieval style of sallets too, well it looks that way.

Light sabres over the Third Reich anyone?


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Postby craig1459 » Thu Nov 03, 2005 6:21 pm

Indeed!
Our group collection includes a sallet which is very similar to the Darth Vader helmet although I believe the design of the latter is influenced by the samurai. (A collection of which can also be found at the RA)

Ignoring our interstellar friend it would be interesting to know if there was an eastern influence in the emergence of the late medieval German sallet. What drove changes in armour style?


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Postby guthrie » Thu Nov 03, 2005 7:40 pm

Am I the only person who doesnt have any trouble with joined hose? Its true I am very skinny, but I do have long legs. As far as I can tell the point is to get as stretchy cloth as possible, cut on the bias, (diagonally across the weave) and have them fitted by your partner/ best friend or whomever you trust to get in close into your crotch, so that they have less of a gap when you have your legs far apart. They have to be fitted, as far as I know, most clothes were quite tightly fitted from the later 14th century onwards. (Doublets, hose, etc.)



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Postby gregory23b » Fri Nov 04, 2005 9:50 am

I used to have closed hose and they were fine, they were well cut and as you say stretchy, but lots of guys have the closed hose.

I have some hand dyed worsted twill which stretches like lycra (no it is pure wool) so maybe will be giving that a shot as a closed pair.

The main problems seem to be not good enough cloth and too low a crutch having thcik thighs does not help but then if they are made right they should work.


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Postby John Waller » Fri Nov 04, 2005 10:08 am

Tee wrote:If you're after using something other than leather as a lacing cord, what about using lucet cord....nice and strong and will actually hold a knot for a significant length of time (personal experience - kept finding that a knot using leather cord kept coming undone but not in the same way with lucet cord).


I confess that I use lucet cord to fasten my hose and doublet. But is there any evidence for use of the lucet in the C15th?


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Postby Alice the Huswyf » Sat Nov 05, 2005 7:11 am

Squatting like a girl (knees together) will save horizontal tears across the top of the thigh: even the best made hose often don't survive being demanded to speed-stretch both ways at the crotch when a bloke squats knees apart as he can do in jeans.



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Postby gregory23b » Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:47 pm

Interesting point Dame Alice,

I suspect there is also a bit of wanting hose that are too tight for the jobs that most soldiery types need, ie maybe slightly looser rather than haute coteur spray ons.

Next season I will be wearing a pair of flared hose, you wait and see and they will be correct too....nya nya

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Postby guthrie » Sat Nov 05, 2005 8:04 pm

OK, bring your proof to events next year, and I'd love to see you bump into some authentinazis.



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Postby gregory23b » Sun Nov 06, 2005 1:03 am

See Guthrie I would not issue a challenge I could not win ;-)*

And the sources are readily available so I may if I am feeling generous proffer it, or I may not ;-)


*One could say they see me with one authenti-nazi and I would raise them one, maybe two.


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