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Question - 14c & 15c Pouches

Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 2:26 pm
by WhiteWolf
Is there any evidence of belt pouches being made from anything other than leather.

We have some skins and I was thinking about using some to make up a belt pouch. But if there is no evidence of this I will use it for other stuff.

Cheers

WW 8)
Andy

Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 2:30 pm
by tonw
what kind of skins?

Skins have a leather back but whats the point? you'd have a fluffy pouch and sporrens aren't overly medieval

you can have fabric money pouches make from anything really wool/linen/felt

I would personally use the skins for something else depending on the size you could use them as a bed :D

Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 2:35 pm
by WhiteWolf
Cheers for that

They're rabbit, till i can get something bigger.

So it would be a very ickle bed :wink:

Will find another use for them.

Cheers again

Andy 8)

Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 4:21 pm
by gregory23b
WW - yers 15th C clothing and accessories were pretty finely wrought, leather or cloth for pouches, decent cloth etc. Rabbits not all that common so I have been told, although considering how quick they breed....

Steer clear of the chrome tanned leathers, they are the orrible plasticy ones, talk to the various purveyors of leather here, Steve Stocker and Tod Stuff, both excellent chaps and willing to help.

Likewise with cloth try and get hold of a sampler which gives you a good idea of what colour to match, so even if it is a modern dye it will at least look right. If you have a particular colour in mind you may find it useful to acquire some sample bits.

Sounds all a bit laborious but it int and it will save you money as you wont be in the position of 'oh no my outfit is just too bright, I must update it oh no all that money" etc

It can be quite fun checking out the necessary stuff.

OT - but no nos are
teak or mahogany salad bowls, salad bowls full stop, anything that look sliek it has come from habitat or indonesia is likely to have done.

loads of nonsense hanging from the belt, get a bag - easy to sew and ahem. therapeutic (yeah right I hear al the stitch-ophobes)

You got a group yet btw?

Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 4:40 pm
by Chickun
I have just read that a medieval warrener's lodge has been opened to the pubes in Suffolk; it was under the control of Bury St Eds Abbey, and essentially is a squat cottage with walls up to 1m thick. Sits in the middle of several warrens and manages the "production" of rabbits for fur/meat.

http://www.buryfreepress.co.uk/ViewArti ... ID=1047777

Think, don't quote, that it'd be reasonalbe to do some lining (collars/cuffs) with rabbit skin, and if you have a foot you can use it to polish jewelry with :) as mentioned in Alexander Neckham's 12th C description of goldsmith's work.

Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 5:01 pm
by WhiteWolf
gregory23b wrote:WW - yers 15th C clothing and accessories were pretty finely wrought, leather or cloth for pouches, decent cloth etc. Rabbits not all that common so I have been told, although considering how quick they breed....

You got a group yet btw?


Cheers

Yeah we have been accepted into Milwr Morganwg.

So we are on that very steep learning curve thingy and don't want to fall off :shock:

WW 8)
Andy

Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 5:04 pm
by gregory23b
Ere Chickun what 'managing' do rabbits need ot reproduce as far as I can recall you have to pull the buggers apart, the males are rapacious beyond belief.

Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 5:18 pm
by Chickun
I suppose "managing" would be "harvesting" i.e. catching em and also stopping the ner-do-wells of the W. Suffolk region from pilfering them.

I agree they don't need much encouragement to breed.

Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 5:52 pm
by gregory23b
yes, harvesting rabbits sounds much better.

I can see it now giant rabbit stacks all over the place, nice smell too.

Rabbit is lovely.....

Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 8:55 am
by JC Milwr
Rabbits were uncommon and coddled in the early medieval period as they weren't hardy enough for our climate. Once natural selection had sorted that out, they were off!

Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 9:15 am
by WhiteWolf
Looks like I'm going to have to use these skins for something else.

Anybody got a dolls house that needs a rug? :wink: :lol:

WW 8)
Andy

Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 9:24 am
by Chickun
I guess it depends where and what time you are talking about - they were apparently introduced by the Normans after the conquest in artificial warrens called "pillow mounds". I suppose it'd take a while for them to get settled, but by the fact that there are two Warrener's lodges in breckland they were, at least in that part of the country where the sandy soil was very accomodating, quite prolific and established enough to warrant building substantial buildings.

WW I may well have them off you for said gown furring if you don't need/want them.

Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 9:37 am
by WhiteWolf
Chickun wrote:WW I may well have them off you for said gown furring if you don't need/want them.


Hi Chickun

We will make something from them, I just bought one of Bowstocks leather starter kits, so I could use the skin to practice on.

May even make some fur knickers :shock: (OK to much information there :lol: )

WW 8)

Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 9:46 am
by Chickun
Fair play mate, where did ya get them BTW? My missus would love me forever for lining mittens with rabbit skin!

Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 10:30 am
by WhiteWolf
Chickun wrote:Fair play mate, where did ya get them BTW? My missus would love me forever for lining mittens with rabbit skin!


Now there's an idea.

It was a stall at Blore that was actually selling wine and mead (well you have to, don't you :) ) and he had a basket full of them in every colour you could think a rabbit would come in :) . But sorry no idea what the traders name was.

Some of the other traders/re-enactors may know.

WW 8)

Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 4:52 pm
by m300572
Lots of rabbit warrens across the country (look for 'Warren' or 'Coney' place names on an OS map. they were essentially rabbit farms - pillow mounds were long artificial earthen mounds for the furrys to burrow into - lots of good examples on Dartmoor, which was a major centre of rabbit production in the 19th century. The best Dartmoor warrens have the warreners house (usually with a storage building attached) a dog plat - enclosure for dogs, sometimes with kennels built into the walls, and a range of pillow mounds. They were usually sited so that natural obstacles (rivers/streams/cliffs) formed a high proportion of the boundaries. The Dartmoor ones also habve vermin traps around the perimeter - these are X shaped settings of stone, the stoatlyweasly things would be funnelled into the centre of the X at they ran along the 'walls' (which are about 6" high) and there would be a tunnel with a spring trap in it to catch them there.

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 12:03 am
by frances
I can get hold of bunny skins, tanned and lovely and soft, white or black at £6 a piece plus postage. Or for £2 browny ones you have to tan yourself, as they are all stiff and horrible. Let me know. But I have not yet shown them to my own pet bunny. hehehe

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 10:54 am
by mally ley
gregory23b wrote:what 'managing' do rabbits need

The management was in the form of farming - not just harvesting but maintaining the warrens (which were manmade - or at least, man started), keeping the plebs out (rabbit meat was not cheap as it was 'farmed')managing the stock, numbers, older rabbits, numbers of males and making sure the ones left alive at the end of the summer season were hardy enough to last the winter but also in the right male/female proportions to start breeding like rabbits again in the spring!
Warreners were quite well to do, don'tcha know.

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 2:01 pm
by Steve Stocker
Twas Cadmus Dave, the old furry rascal. It seems he will be at the NLHF.

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 2:14 pm
by WhiteWolf
Steve Stocker wrote:Twas Cadmus Dave, the old furry rascal. It seems he will be at the NLHF.


I had guessed as much seeing his other posting about giving up the Mead :shock: and me putting 2 and 2 together :)

WW 8)

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 9:50 pm
by cadmus dave
:P Yes... it was I !!!!! Ta for buying the wabbits WW, when you think about it, the lower classes would have made bags and clothing from anything that was up to the job, rabbits would have been quite prolific by the 15th cent, and being pretty stoopid, easy to catch !. not everyone could afford the finer leathers and rabbit pelts would be easier to tan aswell. just a matter of stitching them together then !
Hi Steve, did you get your email regards cow hides ?.
we will have hare pelts and hopefully some very nice antlers and stuff by NLHF.
Dave.

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 9:57 pm
by WhiteWolf
cadmus dave wrote: and hopefully some very nice antlers and stuff by NLHF.
Dave.


Now don't you go selling all the nice antlers till I get there. Need some for blade handles.

WW 8)
Andy

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 10:03 pm
by cadmus dave
no problemo Mr Wolf, i will select some especially for you and hold them back. MY good lady made a blanket from wabbit skins and i have to say, bloody fab !! very warm and cosy. My wabbits will be flying out at a mere £5.00 each and you are all welcome to come and "feel the quality" so to speak. (discount for buying reasonable amounts of pelts). Is there any other type of pelt, skin or leather any of you would like me to try and find before the show ??
Dave.

Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 11:27 am
by Tod
If any one is interested I have a small amount of hair on deer skins, if you want one let me know and I'll bring it to the NLHF
Tod
Foxblade Trading

Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 1:45 pm
by Alice the Huswyf
Word about wearing rabbit fur.... I was rather disappointed to find (having bought enough white rabbit fur to make a late c15th gown collar) that according to the sumptuary laws of the period rabbit fur was still prohibited by status. Strictly so. Most ordinary women were allowed 'mudge' - the fur on a sheeps leg.

Coney still costed £££.

Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 2:00 pm
by WhiteWolf
Alice the Huswyf wrote:Word about wearing rabbit fur.... I was rather disappointed to find (having bought enough white rabbit fur to make a late c15th gown collar) that according to the sumptuary laws of the period rabbit fur was still prohibited by status. Strictly so. Most ordinary women were allowed 'mudge' - the fur on a sheeps leg.

Coney still costed £££.


Cheers,

I will just have to hide it in mittens :twisted: and no-one will ever know :twisted:

WW 8)

Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 5:03 pm
by m300572
the lower classes would have made bags and clothing f


And if you skin them carefully, leaving the heads attached to the skin, you can make very good rabbit glove puppets to upset mops....

Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 5:09 pm
by WhiteWolf
m300572 wrote:
the lower classes would have made bags and clothing f


And if you skin them carefully, leaving the heads attached to the skin, you can make very good rabbit glove puppets to upset mops....


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 6:26 pm
by cadmus dave
hmmmmm, so, there was no private trapping and skinning !! most people in the 15th c. lived off the land, scratching a meagre existance any way they could. given the chance, trapping and using animal skins would be quite normal. In towns maybe this law would be enforced but i think it would have been rare outside of these. Trouble with what we do is everyone likes to portray a character of good (or bad) standing who could afford nice cloths and armour. A tradesman may do better than a farmer but at the end of the day, people didnt stick to the laws any more than we do now, ie.. people poached game and wildlife back then, we still do now !.
Dave.

Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 6:44 pm
by WhiteWolf
cadmus dave wrote:but at the end of the day, people didnt stick to the laws any more than we do now, ie.. people poached game and wildlife back then, we still do now !.
Dave.


You mean you fracture a few laws to get your skins? :wink:
:lol: :lol: Naughty Medieval Mister :lol: :lol:

WW 8)

P.S.
Don't forget to save me some :lol: