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Creating beginners guides (Armed Pilgrim~1285)

Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:27 pm
by Paddy
Last one, honest!

And I've saved the hardest for last. Now, I have a list of clothing allocation acording to statutes of 1206, so assuming they hadnt changed by 1285, the kit is based on them.

statutes:
white linen or cotton breeches x3 pairs
white linen or cotton shirt x3
linen cotta x3
white hose x2 pairs, one linen, one wool
cotton coif
white cap, probably of felt
black woolen garnache and hood
black woolen mantle lined with fur for winter
black woolen mantle unlined for winter
white linen bedding sheets x4
linen bag for bedding

Surcoat turned red for knights in 1259, and for all in1278


Proposed kit:
Tunic (short, long sleeved, linen, very light brown - not the right colour, but close, and leaves open for other uses)

Trousers (linen, drawstring, very light brown - not the right colour, but close, and leaves open for other uses. Thinking of avoiding the more accurate hose, as 1: they wont be seen, and 2: this is a beginners list after all - we'll be getting a supply of whatever is decided upon for the group, and letting older hnds get their own and stop using the communal kit, and when they do that, they can get more accurate)

Shoes (Simple leather. Or shoud we be looking at boots again, having a b**ger of a time finding out about footwear :x ?)

Belt (leather, but how thick, and how long? 1-2"?)

Padding

Helmet (simple skull cap yet again, although a kettle was suggested in the WOTR thread, and it is tempting, but means further outlay over all three periods)

Red surcoat (Material?)

Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:34 pm
by guthrie
What kind of helmet did a sergeant wear?

And are you sure you arent taking on too much? Trying for 3 wildly differing periods shows to me a commendable enthusiasm coupled with wild exageration of capabilities. It'll take you long enough to learn to fight with a bill, let along a spear, sword, shield, etc, let alone make all that kit.

Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:48 pm
by Paddy
Heh, thanks for the complement and concerns. Really. Its easy to dismiss youthful enthusiasm as plain daft, so its nice to hear positive words.

Remember, these are guides for where we want to be. There are a lot of unusual pros and cons to be students, however, one of the big pros is being able to get together for long periods and form production lines (Once we know what we want). Its also quite a while to the national events, and we have one day a weekset aside for kit mking and repair alone :D (officialy 3-5 on Saturday, but we have the run of the place, so can go all night if we want - helps to have friends in the right places!)

Also, the spear is uniquitous :D - Bills, shields, swords, and other fancy weapons can wait for now, we'll get this one right first.

Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:17 pm
by Tuppence
I'd agree that you're being over-ambitious.

Far better to pick one date for now, and get used to doing that (and more importantly get it right). Then when that's done (and it will take at least two or three, and more like five, years), you can start looking at other dates.

Apart from anything else, where are you going to do hospitaller shows?? There aren't that many groups that cover this dateline, and hardly any that do it well (believe me, mine does :mrgreen: ).

And what do you mean by "national events"??
Proposed kit:
Tunic (short, long sleeved, linen, very light brown - not the right colour, but close, and leaves open for other uses)
No.
You're going for something very specific by saying hospitallers.
It's one of the very few early medieval roles that has all the kit mapped out for you.
Stick to the statute, or what's the point??
Plus, by this date, you're talking about a tunic that's knee length or longer, and front and back split, so it couldn't be used at any other date.
Trousers (linen, drawstring, very light brown - not the right colour, but close, and leaves open for other uses. Thinking of avoiding the more accurate hose, as 1: they wont be seen, and 2: this is a beginners list after all - we'll be getting a supply of whatever is decided upon for the group, and letting older hnds get their own and stop using the communal kit, and when they do that, they can get more accurate)
Again no.
You have the statute, and trousers are completely wrong, not only in terms of the statute, but also in terms of social class.

They will be seen, (front and back split, remember, through which the hose and braies do show), and they are completely, and unavoidably wrong.

If you are going to compromise on this, then what's the point in doing hospitaller??
Shoes (Simple leather. Or shoud we be looking at boots again, having a b**ger of a time finding out about footwear ?)
actually, shoes for hospitallers.
Belt (leather, but how thick, and how long? 1-2"?)
Depends on it's use. thickness largely dependant on buckle, but for over armour needs to be thicker and stronger. belts at this period for civilians would be quite long.
Padding


definitely a gambeson, but probably worn under mail of some sort (unless occasionally in the middle east - and we're not). if no mail, again, what's the point.
Helmet (simple skull cap yet again, although a kettle was suggested in the WOTR thread, and it is tempting, but means further outlay over all three periods)
Probably more likely a spangen, half or full faced, or great helm.

Red surcoat (Material?)
shirtweight linen, lined in white linen. knee length or longer, front and back split.

You've also forgotten about the monastic clothing that was issued 9they were after all monks).

A sergeant at arms would probably also have leg armour (mail, probably with either padding or arming hosen under it).


I think you have a problem here, in that the clothing is all laid out. Although you can compromise on the amount of clothes (eg only have one pair of hosen, dispense with the fur lined cloak, etc), you really can't compromise on what the clothes are.

But I think you have a much greater problem with attempting the hospitallers. How many of you are there??
How likely is it that there would be that many hospitallers all together at once, and of the same rank?
Not very, I'd suggest. If you're going to do hospitallers, you have to have people of all ranks - from the very lowest, to the full brother knights.
You'd have to have that variance of kit in order to be at all convincing, and unfortunately, this is one you can't do on the cheap.

There are also contstant disagreements about how active the hospitallers were in this country. You could portray the hospitallers as they were in contintental europe, but you might well be excluding yourself from shows run by some organisations (eg eh).

Also you're excluding women.

All in all, I'd bin the idea of attempting hospitallers - at least for the time being - and concentrate on one of the other two periods.
You can always come back to hospitallers in a few years when you all have some cash! :D

(BTW - don't forget that student re-enactment groups have probably the highest drop out rate of all re-enactment groups.)

Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:01 pm
by saxon
Have to agree with the other posts, if you really DO want to concentrate on Hospitaller then fine, it is a very niche area as regards re-enactment.
I invested in the full get up for a Hospitaller many years ago, following the 1206 statute guidelines, however, I make good use of mine as it comes in useful for certain areas of Key stage 3 medieval talks. Sadly there are very very few around who solely concentrate on the Hospitallers for re-enactment purposes so you could end up spending a LOT of money on kit you'll never really use. The full hooded mantle I have cost over £150 ....... worth every penny to me but is it useful to yourself ????
As regards the kit itself, as has been said you have to remember they were first and foremost a holy order of 'warrior monks'. The linen shirt really should be ankle length and as pure white as is possible for the period. Again woollen or linen hose (usually a pair of each to alleviate climate and times of year) again in as pure white as possible. Shoes ? very basic and soft hide, certain types of footwear were not allowed in monastic orders and it could also depend on rank.
Belts ? it all depends if you are going to invest in 'post 1259' kit, Prior to this the set standard colour of black was the only one worn. The sleeveless surcoat (tunic) wasn't really seen until the 1250's, prior to this you would have been wearing the full monks 'cappa' over any armour you may have been issued with according to rank and statute policy. Material for surcoat would have been linen.
The only belt you may have worn is possibly your sword belt, any other waist fastening would have been the monastic white rope.
Helmets would have probably been the simple 'under coif' close fitting skull cap for a sergeant at arms, with the conical spangen still quite common for the brother knights. You are more likely to see the kettle helmet being worn post 1270 ish by the brother knights at arms, quite probable that by then they would also be wearing the full type of great helm. Prior to 1250 ish the most common form of helmet for higher ranked men would be the half helm i.e. conical or round topped spangen with only a front plate for the face.
There's a lot to consider Paddy, depends on how much use you may put your kit to. Good luck anyway :wink:

Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:50 pm
by Paddy
OK then, a re-think on this branch - pilgrim band of the same dates.

The purpose of this thread isnt my own personal kit (thats being taken care of slowly, and I'll be PMing people about it), but rather this is group kit and beginners bare minimum guides (just incase some people were confused)!

The overall aim is to get some newbies in something, and having a go - without breaking our meagre funds, or pissing off the more experienced groups. Sorry to change tack on you, but our funds are oh so finite, and the aim very important. Tell a student they can join in your snazzy hobby, but only if they shell out X-hundred pounds first, and they wont join, simple as that!

Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:20 pm
by Karen Larsdatter
Paddy wrote:OK then, a re-think on this branch - pilgrim band of the same dates.
I haven't seen many examples of pilgrims' clothing from the 13th century -- see http://www.larsdatter.com/pilgrims.htm for the pilgrims' clothing I have seen -- but I would suspect that a pilgrim would, in general, wear:
  • A broad hat, probably black, with badges for the shrines or pilgrimage-sites that one has visited.
  • A cloak (without attached hood) of undyed brown or grey wool; or else a loose robe worn over one's clothing. A gardecorps would be a fine 13th century alternative to the outer robe.
  • A hood (for men) or some sort of linen headdress (wimple and/or veil, possibly with a barbette and/or filet; see Simple Steps to Look Great in a Veil for simple instructions)
  • A scrip -- a sort of envelope-shaped satchel with a long strap that goes over one's shoulder. See http://www.larsdatter.com/pilgrims.htm for various styles of these bags, though for a 13th century example of a similar style of bag, see the Maciejowski Bible. (These are very useful for carrying the goods one needs for a day at an event, and are easy to construct.)
  • A staff, or walking-stick.
  • As to what one wears under the pilgrim's mantle or robe, this should probably be a simple tunic -- knee-length for men, full-length for women -- the links on 13th century clothing will provide some useful guidance, but those who are new to sewing might want to see Your First Garb or Practical Worksheet for Tunic Construction -- for a 13th century "look," I'd recommend going with a keyhole neckline (at least that's what we call it in the U.S. -- a circular neck-hole with a slit down the center front), and pinning it closed with a circular (or "annular") brooch.
  • Under the tunic, a man could wear a white linen shirt, perhaps on the order of the St. Louis garment discussed at Your First Garb: The Tunic of St. Louis or Another Look at St. Louis' Shirt -- a woman could wear a white linen smock of similar construction, though longer length. I don't think I've seen any images of 13th century women's smocks, but I imagine they'd be similar in length to the ones I've linked to at http://www.larsdatter.com/smocks.htm (Note that I'm using the word "could" here. It's good to wear the "right" sorts of undergarments, but if this is meant as a guide for beginners and students without high budgets, this is a layer that would not be glaringly missed if it were omitted.)
  • As to legwear, a man could wear white linen braies -- perhaps in the style of the ones in the Maciejowski Bible -- see http://www.thirteenthcentury.com/pages/braies01.html or http://www.randyasplund.com/browse/medi ... usse1.html for illustrations (or some additional links on braies & breeches). These would be worn with long hose called "chausses," which also appear in some of those same illustrations. I don't know of any illustrations for women's undergarments of the same era, but I would expect that they would wear cloth hose of about knee length, probably gartered or tied at the knee. Links to information on constructing such hose for men or for women can be found at the stockings, chausses, and hose section of links. (Again, this is not a "must-have" layer for a low-budget beginner's pilgrim interpretation, but it might be of use.)
  • Shoes should probably be turnshoes; some pilgrims (from what I recall) made their vows to go on pilgrimage barefoot, but not all. There are some links to information about turnshoes, including how to make your own; also, the Medieval Shoemaking mailing list may have more guidance & information.
  • As to jewelry, there's a section of links on 13th century jewelry in general, but there's additional sections for pilgrim's badges and paternosters that might be more appropriate for this sort of portrayal. There are several retailers selling replicas of the pilgrim's badges these days, of course; over in the UK, you've got Millingham and Lionheart, but there's also several here in North America (including Billy & Charlie, Gaukler, Fettered Cock, and Talbot). Or, you could learn how to cast your own.
So -- for bare minimum, I'd say to go with the cloak and tunic, accessorized with a scrip and perhaps a broad-brimmed hat; the other bits can be added as time goes on.

Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:42 pm
by lidimy
doesnt chaucer have several descriptions of pilgrims?

Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:06 pm
by Karen Larsdatter
lidimy wrote:doesnt chaucer have several descriptions of pilgrims?
Yep -- see http://www.larsdatter.com/chaucer.htm -- but they don't seem to be dressed as "typical" pilgrims.

There's various theories as to why Chaucer dressed them the way he did -- whether the garments are strictly symbolic, or are just typical for everyday dress for each individual. (The books by Laura F. Hodges go into greater detail on the garments worn just by the pilgrims, and shows a lot of related illustrations and archaeological finds that relate to the clothing Chaucer described.)

Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 2:51 pm
by mac (crucesignati)
A couple of points on whether or not it is a good idea to portray the Hospitaller role.

Saxon said "Sadly there are very very few around who solely concentrate on the Hospitallers for re-enactment purposes so you could end up spending a LOT of money on kit you'll never really use"

I don't see why the kit would never be used. Attend earlier-period bashes or multi-period events and you can use it every time. If you are doing your own smaller events for the public/EH etc then the show is obviously tailored to whatever it is you are showing, ie Hospitallers.

Tuppence wrote "Apart from anything else, where are you going to do hospitaller shows?? There aren't that many groups that cover this dateline, and hardly any that do it well (believe me, mine does )."

Again, see previous comment. Paddy can do Hospitaller shows wherever he or his group find the work. I agree there are not many that cover this sort of role and of those that do, many have room for improvement. I'd like to see some pics of your group, do you have any? (I'm really interested in any crusading group)

Tuppence wrote: "But I think you have a much greater problem with attempting the hospitallers. How many of you are there??
How likely is it that there would be that many hospitallers all together at once, and of the same rank?
Not very, I'd suggest. If you're going to do hospitallers, you have to have people of all ranks - from the very lowest, to the full brother knights."

Why is it unlikely that a group of Hospitaller knights would be together in one location?

The issue of whether you would have members of this Order in this country is an irelevant point unless you are taking part in an 'authentic' (please excuse the term!) battle that actually occurred here.
Otherwise it could just be an opportunity for the public to see what they looked like and ask questions about them.

Exclusion of women... that is up to the individual group policy, you cannot tell another group that this policy is wrong. We always have the argument about women on the battlefield in these forums and it is not my intention to drag it up again. There are, same as the lads, extremely competent female combatents in our pastime. You can argue untill you are blue in the face about whether or not there were female knights, one thing I would suggest IMHO that you can be pretty sure of is that there were no female combatent members of a fighting monastic order.

I portray a Templar Knight and have been using the kit at bashes for years.

One thing with using 1206 statutes for a 1285 character, imagine current day soldiers using kit detailed in a WW2 manual. It wouldn't happen. Whilst the statutes can be used as a good guide, I think you really need to take into account the fact that many years have passed and you are talking about a wealthy fighting force which would not have needed to use out-of-date kit that has been superceded by more up-to-date equipment.

Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 2:55 pm
by mac (crucesignati)
mac (crucesignati) wrote:
[O]ne thing I would suggest IMHO that you can be pretty sure of is that there were no female combatent members of a fighting monastic order.
I'm not talking about the female monastic order I have read in other threads on this forum, I'm talking about the Orders in question. :)

Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 7:17 pm
by saxon
Mac - I wasn't trying to say that the kit would NEVER get used, more like it would be a lot of money to lay out if you weren't intending to use it to any extent. If you were portraying this order every event then no problem. It's all the decision of the individual and their budget.

Mac - my own main interest is in the Crusades, what and where have you got events next year ?

Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 1:04 pm
by mac (crucesignati)
Saxon, I'm kind of on my own really. I've been trying to get a Templar group up and running for the past 7yrs(ish) but without much joy. So I usually attend bigger bashes and small shows on invite from freinds with more established groups.

I certainly intend to Templecombe next year and whatever elsse I can get to. Do you have any crusading stylee events/bashes going on?