I need help dating pictures!

Hecate · Post by **Hecate** » Thu Aug 03, 2006 6:10 pm

Hi,
I really need spercific dates for these pictures and for the sick room one, where it is from. Can anyone help please

Hecate · Post by **Hecate** » Thu Aug 03, 2006 6:13 pm

can't get the other attached it's too big!

sally · Post by **sally** » Thu Aug 03, 2006 7:12 pm

Its from MS Royal 15D1 and lives at the British Library

sally · Post by **sally** » Thu Aug 03, 2006 7:20 pm

and as if by magic, heres the whole thing
http://www.imagesonline.bl.uk/britishli ... rtid=30249

Record Number: 20979
Shelfmark: Royal 15 D. I
Page Folio Number: f.18
Description: (Whole miniature) The blind Tobit lies in bed in a room, attended by two women, whilst outside his son Tobias enter the building with the Angel Raphael who will cure his father.
Title of Work: Bible Historiale of Edward IV
Author: Des Moulins, Guyart, author; Du Ries, Jean, scribe
Illustrator: -
Production: S. Netherlands [Bruges]; circa 1479

Hecate · Post by **Hecate** » Thu Aug 03, 2006 7:53 pm

Sally, has anyone told you how wonderful you are recently

thank you so much,
that's helped enourmously

guthrie · Post by **guthrie** » Thu Aug 03, 2006 10:06 pm

I knew it was later 15th century, I've seen it before somewhere, but Sally ahs saved me trying to find it.

You know you do re-enacting and are interested in old buildings when you go "nice fireplace" when you see pictures like that.

Tuppence · Post by **Tuppence** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 12:07 pm

or 'look at that nice big plate she's carrying'....

sally · Post by **sally** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 12:14 pm

its the cooking pot I covet

Sophia · Post by **Sophia** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 3:41 pm

Me too - wondering if one on hearth is a pipkin or a cauldron and if it is ceramic

Just starting to explore cooking in ceramics as most C15th people seem to do metal most of the time.

Sophia

gregory23b · Post by **gregory23b** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 5:05 pm

Yes cos' they often are too scared to cook with ceramic, oh how many pots did I break on an open flame! duh.

Other than that I can recommend any of Jim's ceramics for ember cooking, superb, managed to cook up some varnish to boiling point.

Sophia · Post by **Sophia** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 5:31 pm

Well done - managed to boil water in my Jane Jugs pipkin, great if not in a hurry, expect I will use for spiced cider when weather cold (more convincingly LH than tea or coffee

)

Am going to try out cauldron and dutch pot Peter bought me this w/e and see how I go. Aiming to do things like stew, pottages, etc. so not expecting speed. Also do better when not slap bang in middle of fire.

I will also investigate Jim's stuff.

BTW this raises an interesting question - it can potentially be expensive to cook in ceramics today. How did metal cookware compare v. ceramics in the C15th.

Was there a cookware poverty trap where people could afford to replace broken ceramics but couldn't quite afford a metal cookpot because they were continually having to replace broken ceramic cookware?

OR

Were ceramics in the form we know them limited to wealthier/commercial establishments who could stand the cost of the turnover?

Has anyone done any research on this. I suspect that there is already some medieval archaelogist whose keen on pots who has compiled a comparison of the finds types against social/economic status of the site they came from. If not why not

Sophia

Hecate · Post by **Hecate** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 5:44 pm

Jim might know, I know he does alot of research on his products before producing them.

What's a pipkin btw? not come across that term before

Sophia · Post by **Sophia** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 6:15 pm

COD defines as follows:

pipkin n. small earthenware pot or pan. [16th c.; orig. unkn.]

In Middle Dutch the diminutive for pot (as in ceramic) is "potkijn" which to my mind could be a source. The -kijn/ken suffix is common in the forms of Middle Dutch which were most mutually intelligible with East Coast Middle English. If you want to get an idea how close things were you should compare Caxtons "Reynard the Foxe" with the 1492 Gouda Leeuw chapbook "Van den Vos Reynaerde". As with Everyman and Elkerlijc there is strong evidence that the one is translated from the other (MD into ME), though when I left college no one had produced a definitive study of the Reynard texts yet (that was in 1991 though).

Incidentally the Gouda chapbook is also the source for Goethe's "Rheinhard Fuchs" and ny extension for Michel Rodange's "Renert" the greatest work of Luxemburgish literature in existence to my mind which was created before the country really had true independence to boot (apologies for diversionary rant).

Also as a pipken is often used for heating spiced wine prior to straining the base word could be pipe (ME)/ pijp (MD) as in container for wine

I have always understood it as aform of jug, generally three footed jug used to heat liquids in embers at edge of fire. C15th kettle if you like, though only for the laid back - otherwise buy a small but excellent metal pot from someone like anvil arts (has beautiful dinky ones that will do about enough for two mugs/four pottles.

Sophia

Hecate · Post by **Hecate** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 6:25 pm

Thank you... turns out I've got one of them!