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14th century young man's kit

Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 10:18 pm
by Gail Horn
My ever-so-helpful 12 yrs old Spawn of Satan 1 has decided that I am to make him a warm wool coat for Cossie (less than 3 weeks away) which isn't too much of a problem (who am I kidding?), except I'm not too sure what sort of design it should be!

He likes the livery coat things that the WoTR crowd wear, but we re-enact 14th century, so they are a little late for us. His position, as such, apart from playing Game Boys and being a pain in the butt, is as a squire to the Court of Eddie III, so I can make it a bit flash, if acceptable. He is 5ft 6in and built like a brick outhouse, so will not like anything Spawn of Satan II (7 yr old brother) will like!

Please could some of you people out there put me out of my misery before I hack into the green and yellow wool he wants and cut the wrong thing out? :?

Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 12:25 am
by Tuppence
You could go the cloak route (perfectly ok for fourteenth).

But personally, I'd go for a herigaut or a garnache.

the former is around from the mid 12th C and is basically (thinking of best way to describe it)... an unsplit tunic with a hood, and with long sleeves with slits at the upper arm and the forearm (or elbow and wrist level) so that the hand can be passed through the slits, and the sleeves worn as hanging sleeves. The advantage of this one is that as the sleeves are cut long, you can also pull the ends of the sleeves over your hands in colder weather. Disadvantages - the sleeves might get in the way.

The garnache may be either a tunic, with wide elbow length sleeves, or a sort of sleeved tabard with the back and front stitched together from around waist or hip level.
There's evidence to supoport both possiblities.
This could also have a hood.

If that makes no sense whatsoever, e-mail me, and I'll dig out a couple of piccies.

Debbie

Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 8:52 am
by Gail Horn
Thanks for the info. Spawn has got a cloak - welll, actually he's had to move into mine as he's grown so much during the last year that what was his knee length one now just looks silly! He thinks they get in his way...

I think I may go the second route as he says it'll look 'just like a hoody' and thus more socially acceptable to the average street wise 12 year old - except in the 14th century!

Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:29 pm
by Karen Larsdatter
I'm not sure if what we call a "gardecorps" is similoar to either of the garments Debbie describes above (it's probably closer to what she calls a "herigaut"). Here's some examples (with a pattern) based on 13th century illustrations in the Maciejowski Bible: http://www.companyofoutremer.com/gardecorps.htm

A few of the young men in the Manesse Codex show them in hooded overgarments as well -- but I imagine the a 12-year-old boy would quibble at the length (or at least, most 12-year-old boys I've met aren't particularly fond of ankle-length tunics) :oops:

Perhaps one of the men's cloaks that button over one shoulder (rather than closing in front)? Some illustrations of this style:
http://www.gothiceye.com/popup.asp?Ref=CM02
http://www.gothiceye.com/popup.asp?Ref=CM13
http://www.gothiceye.com/popup.asp?Ref=CM14
He might well find that style gets in his way a bit less.

Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 4:26 pm
by Lady Cecily
Double posting removed.

Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 4:28 pm
by Lady Cecily
What about the coat being worn by the chap on the left hand side of this picture.

http://www.manesse.de/img/133.jpg

It looks like it's related to the button front coat from Greenland.

Simple to make and rather stylish when made up. No there are no buttons near the neck of this coat - it's still work in progress.

Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 5:40 pm
by Karen Larsdatter
Lady Cecily wrote:It looks like it's related to the button front coat from Greenland.
Sure! (I'm assuming you mean Herjolfsnes 63 -- right? I've got one of those set up for my husband in a charcoal-grey cashmere/wool blend -- just haven't gotten around to adding the buttons & buttonholes yet :oops: mostly 'cos the fabric I used is too thick to make fabric buttons small enough.)

And it's a style that works well at the end of the 14th century as well -- it's quite similar to the cote Geoffrey Chaucer is generally depicted as wearing (especially in the way that the sleeve looks, I think) -- see the illustration in the Ellesmere manuscript, for example. :)

Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:48 pm
by Lady Cecily
Karen Larsdatter wrote:
Lady Cecily wrote:It looks like it's related to the button front coat from Greenland.
Sure! (I'm assuming you mean Herjolfsnes 63 -- right? I've got one of those set up for my husband in a charcoal-grey cashmere/wool blend -- just haven't gotten around to adding the buttons & buttonholes yet :oops: mostly 'cos the fabric I used is too thick to make fabric buttons small enough.)

And it's a style that works well at the end of the 14th century as well -- it's quite similar to the cote Geoffrey Chaucer is generally depicted as wearing (especially in the way that the sleeve looks,
Yes that's the greenland one - the one I made dosen't have quite the same fullness in the back. The sleeves are tighter on the lower arm than the Chaucer picture (more early 14th than late).

Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:46 pm
by guthrie
I am afraid I am a little confused. DOes the gardecorps thing go over the top of any kind of supertunic? Looking at the pictures, it seems to go over a plain tunic. Yet Dave Rushworth has something very similar called a "heregaude". And Thursfield doesnt mention it at all.

So would you still have 2 tunics under such an outer garment?

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 1:49 am
by Karen Larsdatter
guthrie wrote:I am afraid I am a little confused. Does the gardecorps thing go over the top of any kind of supertunic?
I <i>think</i> so, but I don't know enough about 13th century clothing to say for sure; but you can look around at pictures from the same bible at http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/ ... _bible.htm and http://www.keesn.nl/mac/mac_en.htm to compare. It seems to go over a colored tunic (which is then worn over a white linen shirt/undertunic), and sometimes the gardecorps also has a fur lining.

The benefit in this case is that it's made a bit long to begin with, and even if he outgrows the sleeves, he can wear the gardecorps with his arms poking through the armpit-holes. :)

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 2:16 pm
by Tuppence
obviously the maciejowski bible is a bit of a dodgy source for england (though I'm as guilty of using it as anybody else). same goes for the greenland finds.

however, that's a very good point about the use of buttons - especially for hgher status.

and when it comes to context in terms of location I have purist tendencies which I keep trying to supress..... :D

the garments we're talking about are all basically the top layer, (what we'd think of in modern terms as an overcoat, although cut in line with the styles and tailoring tecniques of the time), so would be worn over the rest of the clothing.

Now onto semantics.
It's most likely that the terms 'guardecorp', 'herigaut', 'garnache', etc, were used to mean different hings by different people, and that those meanings overlapped. EG - the same garment may have been a herigaut in surrey, a garnache in somerset, and a guardecorps in cumbria.

It's a bit like the doublet / pourpoint debate.

Rushworth's spelling is just a variant on 'herigaut'.

Thursfield's book, although v. good, does't really cover the earlier medieval clothing that much - it's more biased towards the late 14th and fifteenth centuries.

Pretty much all the garments, and variants we're talking about flourished during the mid 13th - mid 14th centuries.

Debbie
(still digging out pictures - why did I ever decide to tidy up - I can't find a thing :lol: )

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 3:06 pm
by Karen Larsdatter
That's true. Hmm -- maybe a courtepy (like what the Clerk wears as an overgarment in the Canterbury Tales)?

Image

(Granted, that illustration's from around 1410, but he is an English-type fellah ...)

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 9:41 pm
by guthrie
Tuppence wrote: and when it comes to context in terms of location I have purist tendencies which I keep trying to supress..... :D

the garments we're talking about are all basically the top layer, (what we'd think of in modern terms as an overcoat, although cut in line with the styles and tailoring tecniques of the time), so would be worn over the rest of the clothing.
No No, let your purist tendencies hang out. But when I get to feeling alike a kit nazi, (Not that I know that much, I try to make allowances for what the person is trying to do, and how much they actually know. Someone with your knowledge wearing stuff a hundred years out of date is bad, whereas a erlative newbie wearing stuff that far out can be let off. But if theyre still wearing that kit 3 seasons later, despite new guidelines being issued, then they are to be scorned.

So, just one teensy little question- in places like Scotland, it would be ok to have 2 woolen tunics then a cloak or heregaude/guardecorps? Or perhaps a gown?
I hope so.

(Once I am in my new flat and properly settled in and know how much I can spend, I shall be buying more source books on clothes and weapons.)