Dreaded 'pourpoint' sleeveless doublet question

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Dreaded 'pourpoint' sleeveless doublet question

Postby Pelican » Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:01 pm

I hate to go over this again, but I'm in a bit of a quandry.

We have a blacksmith in the group, a fighting blacksmith, and I need to help him hold his hose up. I've previously made him a sort of sleeveless pourpoint arrangement, the main reason being that blacksmithing is warm work, and really requires rolled up shirt sleeves. Wearing a doublet is just too much for such work, poor lad will melt into a puddle of blacksmith.

I'm hopefully going to have some good russet leftover from a Moy Gown reconstruction, and I'm wondering whether a good use of this would be to re-make said garment, a bit more 'awfentically' than just a sleeveless doublet, as it will be worn with an arming jack.

Or any other suggestions for blacksmiths are of course welcome. I'll post on MEDATS group if I can work out how to link my gmail account with yahoo; rtchnology 1, history 0...


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Re: Dreaded 'pourpoint' sleeveless doublet question

Postby EnglishArcher » Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:14 pm

Why not use linen canvas?


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Re: Dreaded 'pourpoint' sleeveless doublet question

Postby gregory23b » Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:14 pm

pourpoint = doublet, sleeveless or not. ;-) scuttles off to a quiet corner.

EA - yep, linen doublet, cheaper than wool and fit for hot work.


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Re: Dreaded 'pourpoint' sleeveless doublet question

Postby Jenn » Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:20 pm

Julia Barrett
has pulled together a lot of the information on this
http://clothingtherose.co.uk/research-articles/
might be helpful



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Re: Dreaded 'pourpoint' sleeveless doublet question

Postby Sophia » Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:49 pm

Lightweight Linen canvas is ideal for working doublets, allows you to be properly dressed without overheating. I have been making them for my Husband for Kentwell ever since he started, For Medieval he does have a very lightweight wool doublet though I plan to add to canvas one when I have time. They are common in the written record, other materials are fustian, worsted and leather (more C16th though). Most reenactors make their doublet out of far to heavy weight cloth (i.e. coating weight wool).

People tend to forget that just doublet and hose is informal dress - if you want to look smart you wear your livery coat or your gown.


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Re: Dreaded 'pourpoint' sleeveless doublet question

Postby Pelican » Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:16 pm

Thanks all for prompt responses.

I've picked up some lovely handwoven fustian recently (at a price...) for lining a good quality, "bit posher" doublet. A proper under-layer for putting a proper outer garment over, as Sophia rightly points out. But wouldn't fustian be a bit too 'much' for our lowly blacksmith?

My problem is that he doesn't really get along with sleeves full stop, but I've seen some great linen canvases about recently. Perhaps I need to try and coax him into a single layer linen canvas, with sleeves, that can easily be rolled up to the elbow in t'forge...


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Re: Dreaded 'pourpoint' sleeveless doublet question

Postby Sophia » Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:58 pm

Fustian came in a variety of qualities - article in Costume No.43 about it, focus is later but does have references to later C15th. Might be worth your reading.

On getting hot people used to wearing doublets with sleeves, first point is to ensure that the body is a firm fit and the armhole placement is right, high enough under the arm (may feel strange to start with), the top side just inside the crease on the shoulder when the arm is raised and with enough allowance fore and aft for his muscles, if you are early enough you might want to explore the deep armhole type. Cut the sleeves on the loose side and put a good slit at the wrist, this should allow him to turn back his cuffs.

If he is worried about sparks then he should consider treating his shirt and doublet with Diammonium Phosphate (aka yeast nutrient for home brewing). Ruth Gilbert did some tests for us Kentwell folk in 2010 which showed that linen either rinsed in or sprayed with a 15% solution was an effective fire proofing. She had trouble getting the test samples to smoulder ever with multiple attempts. This treatment would need to be renewed after every wash.

Hope this helps,

Sophia


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Re: Dreaded 'pourpoint' sleeveless doublet question

Postby gregory23b » Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:05 pm

Pelican, some fustian is cheaper than wool, as it is a mixed fibre or at least the weft is of a different material, eg, cotton or linen. Far from being too much for a smith, it is likely that it is perfectly reasonable.

The real issue is working clothes, do they always follow the fashion or are they specific to the job at hand?


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Re: Dreaded 'pourpoint' sleeveless doublet question

Postby Sophia » Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:27 pm

Good point Jorge - the Costume article I mentioned explores the use of Fustian and the different types and cost with the primary focus on C18th so might be useful for later types as well.


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Re: Dreaded 'pourpoint' sleeveless doublet question

Postby EnglishArcher » Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:39 pm

Personally, I think the 'too hot' argument is just an excuse because a properly fitted doublet feels a bit 'funny' - that is, not like modern clothes.

Good linen will wick away sweat and keep you cool; but we're not used to wearing wet clothes.

I really suffer with the heat, but I'm fine wearing a linen doublet all day. The trick is to put it on first thing in the morning, when it's cool.


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Re: Dreaded 'pourpoint' sleeveless doublet question

Postby Pelican » Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:24 pm

Thank you all again!

Particularly interested in the home brewing yeast treatment (it's not like I haven't got any kicking about the house... :$ ), definately something worth trying! Event organisers are rarely up for the 'man on fire' routine.

Our time period is WOTR, and taking the point about being specific to the job in hand, the deep armhole would suit the purpose well, after all the shoulder seam is going to be heavily stressed by someone pumping bellows with one arm and hammering with the other for 7 hours a day. I know it's a female garment, but the Moy gown still has these deep armholes, and our time period is encompassed within it's 'carbon dating' date. I thought that a cotton-wool fustian would be too much for our time period, and wearer; but a linen-wool fustian had completely skipped my mind. Next thing is to find some...


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Re: Dreaded 'pourpoint' sleeveless doublet question

Postby Sophia » Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:19 pm

I have used cotton/wool suiting for a working doublet for Peter C-H for C16th. I was lucky enough to find some with a raised ridged nap. Ninya Mikhaila of the Tudor Tailor said it would pass for a Holmes Fustian. She has also suggested top quality pure cotton moleskin as a substitute for Naples Fustian which is a superior cloth for C15th/C16th. I know Sarah Thursfield has used top quality linen instead of Fustian.

Also worth remembering that what we know today as Denim started life and Fustian de Nimes.


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Re: Dreaded 'pourpoint' sleeveless doublet question

Postby gregory23b » Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:06 pm

" I thought that a cotton-wool fustian would be too much for our time period,"

Occurs in late 15th c statute law, edicts against burning the cotton from fustians. Although that needs looking at in its entirety.


As for working clothes and smithery, I recall and can;t find the image online, of a smith in open hose, no breech and his *rse hanging out, possibly with a sleeveless doublet, certainly loose clothing.

At the end of the day much of this about getting the right materials to start with, as Sophia says, there is a general tendency to use cloth that is far too heavy, maybe part of the coarse is period argument. A well made doublet, think waistcoat, lined, interlined etc will last a fair old while. They had a vast array of cloths in the period, some heavy and some very fine.

More research and more looking away from the received wisdom of reenactment.


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Re: Dreaded 'pourpoint' sleeveless doublet question

Postby Pelican » Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:26 pm

Oh lawks, well, if anyone sees a blacksmith with an occassional gammy eye, please, I beg, don't cite the @r5e hanging out reference, it will give him strong ideas that I expect he would want to follow... In all seriousness though, said image might be interesting if I can find it.

That particular statute does ring a bell with me now you mention it - as you say it's not quite so simple as those 5 words and really would benefit from being taken into context. Have I missed something, or does the idea of burning an imported product with all it's associated costs out of a more widely available and native product defy some logic?

Right now he is wearing a medium weight wool sleeveless doublet, which I did make him, admitedly in a bit of a hurry on discovering he'd quickly, ahem, grown out of a newly doublet and therefore had no way to hold hose up for the rest of the season. I just keep looking at it and thinking "nah! I can come up with something better than that!" Whether that turns out to be a wool-linen fustian or a linen canvas (which I think might be somewhat easier to get hold of) I'm not sure yet. I might be back to Sophia for advice about the arm/shoulder fitting if that's OK?


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Re: Dreaded 'pourpoint' sleeveless doublet question

Postby gregory23b » Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:35 pm

Cotton does not appear to be that expensive (necessarily).

In the inventory for Hen VIII Blackfriars joust kit, ie for making props, cotton cloth was as cheap as its linen counterpart, it was used to paint on and decorate his themed joust through a glade. I accept the time frame might affect the price etc.


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Re: Dreaded 'pourpoint' sleeveless doublet question

Postby Pelican » Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:06 pm

Hmmm, I think that the time frame and price ratio might indeed not be at odds with my time period - but I'm always willing to be proved wrong! I'm not sure if I can possibly make this any vaguer, but somewhere at the back of my head is a royal wardrobe inventory that lists just one cotton shirt in either the late 1480s or perhaps 1490. That might have been because said royal didn't like cotton, of course, but it also could imply it was just a little bit pricey?

I recently zonked myself out reading pages of merchants records for the exportation of cloth out of England, but unfortuantely not much info about what's coming in. At the end of it, I concluded that I felt very sorry for poor cloth merchant trying to remenber at least 60 types of cloth.


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Was, Dreaded 'pourpoint', now cotton fustian burning

Postby Grymm » Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:25 am

gregory23b wrote:Occurs in late 15th c statute law, edicts against burning the cotton from fustians. Although that needs looking at in its entirety.


Here's a bit on burning the cotton in fustian;

Act of the eleventh year of Henry VII., called 'A remedy to avoid deceitful slights used upon fustians.'

'That whereas fustians brought from the parts beyond the sea unshorn into this realm, have been and should be the most profitable cloth for doublets and other wearing clothes greatly used among the common people of this realm, and longest have endured of anything that have come into the same realm from the said parts to that intent—for that the cause hath been that such fustians afore this time hath been truly wrought and shorn with the broad sheare, and with no other instruments or deceitful mean used upon the same. Now so it is, that divers persons, by subtlety and undue slights and means, have deceivably imagined and contrived instruments of iron, with which irons,in the most highest and secret places of their houses, they strike and draw the said irons on the said fustians unshorn—by means whereof they pluck off both the nap and cotton of the said fustians, and break commonly both the ground and threads in sunder; and after, by crafty sleeking, they make the same fustians to appear to the common people fine, whole, and sound; and also they raise up the cotton of such fustians, and then take a light candle, and set it on the fustian burning, which singeth and burneth away the cotton of the same fustian from the one end to the other down to the hard threads, instead of shearing; and after that put them in colour, and so subtlely dress them, that their false work cannot be espied, without it be workmen shearers of such fustian, or the wearers of the same.'

And a view on fustians in England during muddyevil and later times.
http://www.e-space.mmu.ac.uk/e-space/bitstream/2173/74454/2/Fustian-final%20version%201st%20edit.pdf

And found during a search, (it's been mention on LH before but again won't hurt) and included for no real reason other than it contains lots of stuff that make me go WTF is that/does that mean?! & Bugger, bugger bugger!
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=36075&strquery=fustian%20cotton
From the 1480/81 import lists http://www.british-history.ac.uk/source.aspx?pubid=159


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Re: Dreaded 'pourpoint' sleeveless doublet question

Postby Ghost » Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:42 pm

[quote=People tend to forget that just doublet and hose is informal dress - if you want to look smart you wear your livery coat or your gown.[/quote]

I second that.............


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Re: Dreaded 'pourpoint' sleeveless doublet question

Postby Sophia » Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:47 pm

Many thanks for the links Grymm - have duly saved and will have a look at them later :D


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Re: Dreaded 'pourpoint' sleeveless doublet question

Postby Pelican » Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:53 pm

Me too!


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Re: Dreaded 'pourpoint' sleeveless doublet question

Postby wulfenganck » Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:51 am

Ghost wrote:[quote=People tend to forget that just doublet and hose is informal dress - if you want to look smart you wear your livery coat or your gown.


I second that.............[/quote]Me too;-)
The overwhelming majority of illustrations show some outer-garment like a houpelande, jacket etc. worn over doublet and hoses, very often with slits in the elbow-pit, thus showing sleeves and often collar - that's the main reason for some sort of mi-parti doublet, i.e. having sleeves and collar from a different and more "posh" fabric.

If a doublet and hoses are shown, it's usually in working/fighting context; if it'S hard physical labour, you'll see the doublet pulled down and worn around the waist.
Maybe this is an option?
Apart from that, go for the linnen doublet.
From around the 1450s onwards, you'll find doublets with slits up to the elbow and even up to nearlay the shoulder frequently - in german fashion that is, don't know about England, 'though...
Compared to these options and their known pictorial and written references I'll find the evidence for "cowboy-wests" (sorry, this has turned to a true No-go for me lately) in the 15th century rather....ahem.....not convincing.



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Re: Dreaded 'pourpoint' sleeveless doublet question

Postby Graham Ashford » Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:44 pm

Hi there

I might be missing the point, I usually do when it come sto clothing conversations. But, if he's hot can't you just go with a belt to hold the hose up, over his shirt/tunic?

I've robbed a few of these images from a Russian forum, but there are a good few images of hose attached to belts ontop of their shirts. I've done blacksmithing/armouring at shows and a nice way to be dressed but keep cooler is to wear an old coif or similar that you soak out in the quench tank prior to use, it deadens sound and is lovely and cool.

This one would be nice and cool and keep the hoses up.
Image

Strip down to the clothes again, with your jacket by the side for 'posh'.
Image

Or just do away with the lot and roll the hose down?
Image

Image

I hope that this helps, doesn't miss the point too far and doesn't muddy the waters :?

Kindest regards

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Last edited by Graham Ashford on Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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Re: Dreaded 'pourpoint' sleeveless doublet question

Postby EnglishArcher » Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:05 pm

wulfenganck wrote:Compared to these options and their known pictorial and written references I'll find the evidence for "cowboy-wests" (sorry, this has turned to a true No-go for me lately) in the 15th century rather....ahem.....not convincing.


Like you, I haven't been convinced. But then someone showed me this image on the Historic Enterprises website:

Image

I can't find a better interpretation than 'sleeveless doublet'. I'm definitely open to ideas on this one!


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Re: Dreaded 'pourpoint' sleeveless doublet question

Postby Sophia » Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:53 pm

These images are a minority group and represent a form of undress. Most re-enactors are unwilling to put a gown or sleeved doublet on over these garments when they finish working so to speak, i.e. step away from the forge/wood chopping or other heavy manual task.

When you study the written record there is little or no evidence for separate sleeves (they start to show up in C16th) for men and given that the majority of doublet images show sleeves it would suggest that the sleeveless garment was yet another layer in the onion that is period dress.

The article on petticoates here while focused on the C16th is interesting and if you look at the linear development of clothes from C15th to C16th it would suggest that that a sleeveless upper body garment which support the hose would always be covered up outside of specific work situations.


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Re: Dreaded 'pourpoint' sleeveless doublet question

Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:53 am

I have got lots of images of doublets with sleeves tied on at the shoulder, or at the elbow, or at the shoulder and elbow.
On close inspection some do appear to be sown in place but others are clearly tied on.
I am aware that I am focusing upon Italian fashion which really does follow a mind of it's own.
I have also seen pictures of women with tie on sleeves in the same places, mostly on higher status women.
I must admit that I rather hoping that this cultural fashion is pretty unique to northern and central northern Italy as it will mean I remain special.
I likes being special me.


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Re: Dreaded 'pourpoint' sleeveless doublet question

Postby Sophia » Thu Apr 05, 2012 1:18 pm

Don't worry Marcus you can carry on being strange and Italian. The larger issue is that sleeveless/pointed sleeves is a minority and circumstance specific in Northern Europe which is where the majority of people doing WOTR or earlier should be looking.


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Re: Dreaded 'pourpoint' sleeveless doublet question

Postby Michal » Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:10 pm

hi,
personally, when it comes to hard labour I find loose clothing more comfortable. Which can be an option as seen below:
Image
(Spiegel des menschlichen Lebens. Mirror of Life . (Ausburg, Gunther Zainer, ca. 1475)



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Re: Dreaded 'pourpoint' sleeveless doublet question

Postby hanneiy » Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:29 pm

Michal wrote:hi,
personally, when it comes to hard labour I find loose clothing more comfortable. Which can be an option as seen below:
Image
(Spiegel des menschlichen Lebens. Mirror of Life . (Ausburg, Gunther Zainer, ca. 1475)

I like this picture art combination... :rock:



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Re: Dreaded 'pourpoint' sleeveless doublet question

Postby gregory23b » Tue Jul 03, 2012 6:02 pm

"Like you, I haven't been convinced. But then someone showed me this image on the Historic Enterprises website:"

It is a good reference, albeit very late say 1480ish French possibly later.


"This one would be nice and cool and keep the hoses up."

Graham, they are 14th Century, (save the last one, early to mid 15th C) chausses/hose change considerably as you move to the middle and late 15th century. On top of that, open hose, ie similar to the ones shown are restricted to people of the rank of servant by statute, ie if you wear such hose then you must be on the lowest rung of the social ladder. Which also leads to the observation of such open hose being made of expensive cloths and dyes in the reenactment world, ie they need to be plainer and made of cheaper cloth and not worn with garments of a higher status.

Open hose for anyone other than low end of society by middle late 15th c is a no no. Given the medieval obsession with social standing and hierarchy, no self respecting medieval would want to dress down. That is something completely lost on us reenactors who live in a more flattened and liberal hierarchy and we unwittingly carry this into our dressing up. So we get people of rank with no servants and we get a mix match of clothes that suit the modern mind set of 'it's only a hobby and I will wear what makes me comfortable', so you will get people ostensibly being of high rank, yet looking like a sack of poo because they mix it up wrong and do not maintain their kit.

Social rank is a massive issue in history and we could do well to explore that with a bit more effort than we do.
Last edited by gregory23b on Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Dreaded 'pourpoint' sleeveless doublet question

Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:15 pm

I echo this sentiment. Men who dress in armour fit for a King and yet wander around looking like shite being one of my many grumbles.
I have however some super single hose that unless you get really quite close, have a good eye or cop me a sly feel you would think were joined hose.
I still don't like them (its a Catholic thing about having my pants on show) but they are an Italian thing.


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