shoulder width on a doublet

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steven pole
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shoulder width on a doublet

Postby steven pole » Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:58 pm

Hi chaps. I'm wondering what the width should be from the neck to the top of the sleeve should be? At the moment the width looks wide and the gathered part of the sleeve shoulder is below my normal shoulder. Any help received gratefully. Steve.



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Sophia
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Re: shoulder width on a doublet

Postby Sophia » Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:22 pm

Should be about 3 fingers wide - way to check is to get someone to measure the distance with your arm raised above shoulder level. Seam should sit just inside the crease that forms. Hope this helps.


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Re: shoulder width on a doublet

Postby frances » Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:33 pm

For women this is easy - it is about where the bra shoulder strap comes to rest. Just where there is a little dent in the shoulder.

Isn't it surprising how many people do not know that they have a little dip in their shoulder just infront of the joint? But it has been there all their lives.



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Re: shoulder width on a doublet

Postby Jackie Phillips » Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:11 pm

3 fingers wide, even on my narrow shoulders would make the sleeve head sit about halfway along the shoulder seam.

Certainly the sleeve should encompass the shoulder joint, rather than sit on the point like modern clothes do. A lot of men find this feels like the garment is too tight for movement, so you need to make sure the back and front width (about halfway between armpit and shoulder) are wide enough that you can move in it.

http://www.companie-of-st-george.ch/cms/?q=en/Clothing_Guide_Download gives a nice description of how to make the pattern and pictures of the finished result.

Jackie


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Re: shoulder width on a doublet

Postby Sophia » Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:38 pm

Maybe a matter of hand size Jackie as I either wear extra large women's gloves (8 1/2 or 9) or men's gloves. For me it works as a rule of thumb though the most important bit is setting the seam just inside the crease and having the bottom of the armhole high enough. It may feel strange to the wearer initially but allows a tight fit with full shoulder rotation but minimal vertical movement on the doublet body in my experience.


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steven pole
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Re: shoulder width on a doublet

Postby steven pole » Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:56 pm

I'll have to be brave and plan how to adjust my present doublet if possible, or get a new one made for me.



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Re: shoulder width on a doublet

Postby wulfenganck » Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:03 am

steven pole wrote:I'll have to be brave and plan how to adjust my present doublet if possible, or get a new one made for me.
Trust me, it'll pay off! Really, this is one of THE essential elements of male clothing, because once you'll have the shoulder/arm joint correct, the hoses fit just as well - if the shoulder/arm joint is wrong, you'll pull up your hoses each time you lift your arms. And the correct shoulder/arm joint represents the typical late gothic shape just as much as the pronounced narrowing shape at elbow level - which is another mistake in a lot of reconstructions, as we modern guys sadly are...er... a bit too fat.....which is why we lack the the typical silhouette.



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Re: shoulder width on a doublet

Postby The Methley Archer » Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:38 pm

Don't be coy about it Wulenganck, tell it how it is.

Some of us are less than svelt :D and that includes me!


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Re: shoulder width on a doublet

Postby Pelican » Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:25 pm

Sophia

If you don't mind me asking do you use your 'rule of 3' regardless of size of wearer? I'm currently in the process of setting sleeves in to a doublet for a chap of 6', with a reasonable shoulder width (as in broad rather than 'all over round'!). I have rather small hands (to quote an ex-boyfriend "you have hands like my 8 year old sister...") so I've been working on a 'rule of 4' - but I'm dead keen to get the sleeves set in properly, not just hanging sloppyily on the outside of the body of the doublet...

I'm relatively satisfied with the hose fit and like wulfenganck says, I really don't want the doublet to let the hose down, or up for that matter.


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Re: shoulder width on a doublet

Postby Sophia » Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:25 pm

Try using your clients hands - get him to rest 3 fingers on the opposite shoulder. You may well find that this gives you the exact proportions. I have done this when fitting very large blokes and found it works. I suppose I just have the advantage of having very large hands for a woman of 5'1" and a bit (8 1/2 or large in women's gloves, small/medium in men's).

Most important thing is to check shoulder rotation, get client to fold arm in with hand facing chest and then rotate shoulder slowly. As they are doing this you can feel for or mark the fold points. The shoulder seam should be just inside this arc of movement so that the sleeve can move as independently of the body panels as possible. The most important thing is to fit high enough under the arm, i.e. right up into the crease as this will ensure that the side is not lifted when the arm is. You may find that the client complains that feels strange, this is because with the exception of certain sorts of very traditional Saville Row tailoring modern armholes are not very fitted.

Hope this makes sense.

Sophia


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Re: shoulder width on a doublet

Postby steven pole » Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:27 pm

Thank you all for the good advice. I now need to decide whether it's worth altering the doublet I already have, or get another one made for me. Anyone know how much a tailor made doublet would cost me?



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Re: shoulder width on a doublet

Postby steven pole » Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:40 pm

rsz_p1010222.jpg
My Doublet at the moment. A bit baggy on the shoulders.



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Re: shoulder width on a doublet

Postby wulfenganck » Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:08 am

steven pole wrote:
rsz_p1010222.jpg
My Doublet at the moment. A bit baggy on the shoulders.
Okay, the arm/body-joint needs to move waaay up...As has been suggested before. Otherwise you'll lift your hoses each time you'll raise your arms over a certain level (your doublet looks pretty much like my first two attempts and I had exactly that problem).
Another thing I recognize is the waistline (is that the english word for "taille"?). The gothic waistline is apparently at elbow-height; yours seems to be a bit too low. And try to use the waistline to underline the shape, i.e. have it narrowing to give the gothic "hourglass-look".



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Re: shoulder width on a doublet

Postby wulfenganck » Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:13 am

The Methley Archer wrote:Don't be coy about it Wulenganck, tell it how it is.

Some of us are less than svelt :D and that includes me!
Years of group therapy help me overcome the shame and the bitterness......



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Re: shoulder width on a doublet

Postby frances » Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:54 am

Yup I agree - you have the modern placing of the shoulder seam there. Take the shoulders in by at least 1-2 inches, and lift the waist up by at least 2" to get the right look. You may then find that the top of arm width of the sleeve is too tight - just add a long thin triangle under the arm. It does not matter if it is another colour - clothes were passed on and altered all the time, and sweat rotted fabric then too so patches were quite usual..

It does not matter if your shirt pops out at the join between jacket and hose - loads of drawings show this, particularly as people bend down doing farming tasks.



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Re: shoulder width on a doublet

Postby Sophia » Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:20 am

Honest advice - I would get a friend to help you fit a completely new toile and use the instructions in The Medieval Tailor's Assistant to draft a new sleeve. Then I would carefully dismantle the old doublet and see if the cloth can be re-used, there is no guarantee of this as I can definitely say that the armhole is going to change shape drastically. Altering a garment any other way is a skilled job.

If you have some cash to invest then you might actually want to arrange a session with Sarah Thursfield herself (http://www.sarahthursfield.com/Courses.php), she is enormously helpful and a very good teacher (I did a hose course with her some years ago).

Finally, if you do end up making a completely new doublet you might want to consider a different cloth and colour, a linen canvas would probably be more suitable for a craftsmen plus that sort of red is a luxury cloth in C15th. Remember your doublet is an inner layer and if you want to look smart you put on your gown.

Hope this helps,

Sophia


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