Wools

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IagotheHungry
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Wools

Postby IagotheHungry » Sat Jul 31, 2010 5:49 pm

Ok, so bearing in mind I'm a costuming newbie, what types of wool fabric are a no-no for C17th breeches, and what's ok? I've had a look on the fabric suppliers threads and Whaleys have a load of wool, and a couple of the others say they do too, but I'm all confused! I know broadcloth, kersey and things are ok, but what about their worsted twill or 'natural cream wool'?
Sorry for sounding so pathetic, but I'm a bit lost :S


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Dathi
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Re: Wools

Postby Dathi » Sun Aug 01, 2010 11:38 am

Russett and worsted are both equally fine as well, as well as frieze for winter wear.



IagotheHungry
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Re: Wools

Postby IagotheHungry » Sun Aug 01, 2010 6:18 pm

That's fantastic, thanks very much, I think I'll bag me some worstead then :)


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Colin Middleton
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Re: Wools

Postby Colin Middleton » Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:47 pm

Just to be difficult, but I recognise those terms from early documents (medieval in my case), but do they mean the same now as they did then?


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Dathi
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Re: Wools

Postby Dathi » Fri Aug 06, 2010 10:43 am

Colin


-ish. That is to say, they "don't" seem to differ much. BUT there may be differences in the actual fabric over 300 years


See http://www.stuart-hmaltd.com/historical_fabrics.php for a loose guide.

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/source.aspx?pubid=739 is always interesting

Try http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... russett#s4
and http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Uwgp ... tt&f=false



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Colin Middleton
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Re: Wools

Postby Colin Middleton » Fri Aug 06, 2010 12:21 pm

Thanks Dathi,

Always good to know these things. :D


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Sophia
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Re: Wools

Postby Sophia » Fri Aug 06, 2010 12:39 pm

Stuart Peachey also publishes a couple of pamphlets on textiles for the 1480-1580 and 1580-1680 time bands. They are useful in so far as they give the guild guidelines for various cloths, but they are not guaranteed accurate as they only true source is a piece of cloth from period with a label on it.

I was talking to Ruth Gilbert who is a textile historian this summer at Kentwell and she pointed out that many modern worsteds are too soft in texture due to changes in wool (think merino) and production methods. Remember that the worsted threads in period cloths were hand combed (not carded) and hand spun until a very late date (hand combing was only discontinued in the late C19th) which generally produces a much harder cloth if I understood her correctly.

Part of picking your cloth is practice - you learn to judge from the hand (feel and fall of a cloth) how it will wear - and research. Read up on textile history, archaeological dig reports, historical accounts, write to museums, apply to see/touch any extant items of clothing in Museums.

Also be prepared to accept that good cloth costs money - you will not unfortunately find a huge amount of accurate cloth under £10/m and should be prepared to pay upward of £40/m if necessary.

Finally remember that the better the fit the better the garment will wear - I have learnt from experience that a badly fitted garment will not wear well as the seams will be strained and the stress on the cloth will be uneven (if it bunches where it shouldn't there will also be rubbing).


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Re: Wools

Postby Dathi » Sat Aug 07, 2010 1:50 pm

Another nice one to know is Kochan & Phillips.

This websie has examples of their cloth http://www.najecki.com/repro/Wool.html . Their own web existance is on facebook at http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/pro ... 196&ref=ts


The fabric they make is based on 18th and early 19th Century examples so it's more machine woven that 17th Century stuff. BUT it's lovley wool...Not cheap but the quality shines through.



IagotheHungry
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Re: Wools

Postby IagotheHungry » Sat Aug 07, 2010 3:20 pm

Thanks guys, this is all good to know :) You're right, the worsted I was given was labelled 'heavyweight' and it felt like a napkin, so that's out I'm afraid :/ On the plus side, I found some wool flannel that feels about right to me, but I'm still searching just in case I find something better.

Is there anywhere that would have a set of C17th breeches? I'm not very up on this sort of thing, although I'd like to be!


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Re: Wools

Postby And So To Bed » Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:02 am

Dathi wrote:Another nice one to know is Kochan & Phillips.

Do you know if there's a direct UK source for Kochan & Phillips? Or are these only available from the US, which is weird because they're woven here aren't they?


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Re: Wools

Postby Batley Royston » Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:18 pm

Dathi wrote:Another nice one to know is Kochan & Phillips.

This websie has examples of their cloth http://www.najecki.com/repro/Wool.html . Their own web existance is on facebook at http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/pro ... 196&ref=ts


The fabric they make is based on 18th and early 19th Century examples so it's more machine woven that 17th Century stuff. BUT it's lovley wool...Not cheap but the quality shines through.


Porbably a bit late for you but have a look at the K & P website at http://www.historicaltextiles.com



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Re: Wools

Postby Nigel » Thu Jul 07, 2011 12:12 pm

And So To Bed wrote:
Dathi wrote:Another nice one to know is Kochan & Phillips.

Do you know if there's a direct UK source for Kochan & Phillips? Or are these only available from the US, which is weird because they're woven here aren't they?


Reading their fbook apges makes me think that they use Hainsworths I amy be wrong but I think it is


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Re: Wools

Postby Batley Royston » Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:44 pm

Reading their fbook apges makes me think that they use Hainsworths I amy be wrong but I think it is

K & P are an independant producer, all their stuff is copied from original samples and made purely for historic purposes. I believe Hainsworth's just happens to be lines they're producing for commercial contracts but marketed for reenactors. The stuff they market for Napoleonic Red Coat cloth has changed about 4 times in the last 10 years, so can't have been 'correct' in the first place. In fact under their 'Napoleonic Range' which they decribe as 'Authentic Wool fabrics suitable for reenactment' the first 3 listed have 12% Nylon in them!



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Re: Wools

Postby Batley Royston » Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:55 pm

IagotheHungry wrote:Thanks guys, this is all good to know :) You're right, the worsted I was given was labelled 'heavyweight' and it felt like a napkin, so that's out I'm afraid :/ On the plus side, I found some wool flannel that feels about right to me, but I'm still searching just in case I find something better.
Is there anywhere that would have a set of C17th breeches? I'm not very up on this sort of thing, although I'd like to be!

Bear in mind Worsted is a fibre (it's woollen of course but prepared a different way as already discussed), which is just one characteristic of any particular type of cloth. The fibre can be spun and woven in a number of different ways giving different types of cloth. You can have serge thats silk or worsted, satin thats silk or worsted etc. As a result 'heavyweight worsted' is a very relative term, and pretty much useless for clasification purposes.

Most modern worsted is spun and woven finely to give a light weight fabric. In the 17th C most ordinary men's outer clothes would be some sort of felted woollen, broadcloth, kersey etc. Broadcloth is plain-weave, kersey is twill; both are then heavily milled to give a solid, felted finish so you can't see the weave (known as a 'blind' finish). Cloths of these broad types were often then known by names relating to their place of manufacture (Worcester, Coventry cloth, both types of Broadcloth) or other features.

Mixed Grey broadcloth or kersey seems to have been common in the 17th C for breeches.



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sheepmilker
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Re: Wools

Postby sheepmilker » Sat Aug 20, 2011 1:21 pm

Others have mentioned Stuart Peachey's books, but don't forget that he sells the closest thing to the most common types of 17C cloth that I know of. http://stuart-hmaltd.com/historical_fabrics.php and someone else pointed out Aiden Campbell http://www.aidan-campbell.co.uk/textiles.htm



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John Waller
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Re: Wools

Postby John Waller » Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:29 pm

Nigel wrote:Reading their fbook apges makes me think that they use Hainsworths I amy be wrong but I think it is


Not so Nige. As Batley Royston says it's independently made and to specs from C19th mill records. It's not cheap (but not much difference to Hainsworth's prices) but top stuff. We in the 2nd have switched to it for our coats.


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Chimples
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Re: Wools

Postby Chimples » Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:08 pm

Curious if KP wool is available in Europe or Canada (without having to go through the states to get it)?



Dathi
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Re: Wools

Postby Dathi » Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:07 pm

Yes, you can contact Sean directly in the UK and order that way




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