Joined hood on late C14, early C15 cloaks?

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Alan E
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Joined hood on late C14, early C15 cloaks?

Postby Alan E » Wed Mar 11, 2009 11:01 am

Does anyone have any evidence what the mourning cloaks handed out by Florence to the followers of Sir John Hawkwood (d. 1394) would have been?

The thought was prompted by mention here http://www.livinghistory.co.uk/forums/v ... 1&start=90 of hooded cloaks not existing in the 15th Century, although Chaucer mentions them (probably late C14) as a rare ecclesiastical garb.
Francis Stonor Saunders describes in 'HAWKWOOD Diabolical Englishman' (p301 of 2005 paperback edition): "Hawkwood's retinue, heavily hooded in the mourning garb purchased by the Commune. His familly too were dressed in black cloaks paid for by the Commune": Any evidence of whether (or not) these mourning cloaks (conflating "black cloaks" and "mourning garb" here, I think justifiably) would have been of the ecclesiastical type which could be integrally hooded?


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Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Wed Mar 11, 2009 2:25 pm

I thought they were just a symbol of being part of the Florintine heirarchy, they contiune to be worn by assembly members throughout the 15th and into the 16th century, he did sit as on eof the 10 after all.


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Postby The Methley Archer » Wed Mar 11, 2009 2:31 pm

Just to muddy the waters. Does the chap in blue, at the front, have a hooded short gown/cote round his neck.

Discuss :D


Edit - "L'Annonce aux bergers. Danse champ�tre.Heures de Charles d'Angoul�me, Folio 20V. French, late 15th century"
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Postby John Waller » Wed Mar 11, 2009 3:07 pm

The Methley Archer wrote:Just to muddy the waters. Does the chap in blue, at the front, have a hooded short gown/cote round his neck.

Discuss :D


Date?


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Postby Lena » Wed Mar 11, 2009 3:08 pm

The Methley Archer wrote:Just to muddy the waters. Does the chap in blue, at the front, have a hooded short gown/cote round his neck.


It looks like she's holding on to a long sleeve, so I guess it might be a gardecorps.



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Postby The Methley Archer » Wed Mar 11, 2009 4:11 pm

John, I just knew that was coming when I posted it :D I'll have to do more looking know just beacuse I was lazy and couldn't be bothered saving the date! When I find it Ill edit.

edit - Have added what info r.e. dates i can find, its as good as its getting off me :D .


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Postby Alice the Huswyf » Wed Mar 11, 2009 4:24 pm

The bag of the hood is so capacious that it might be hiding a shoulder plate - but of the same fabric?

No doubt there are exceptions to the rule - but if everyone lands on one 'new' source and copies it , that item becomes a re-enactment fashion becuase everyone wants the 'new' thing. And becuase so many people wear it there is the danger that it is taken as a common garment. * Therefore the prevalence of the original within it's time frame is wholly misrepresented.



* Mind you, this should never happen becuase of course we all do independent research and double check the suitability of anything we are acquiring, don't we?



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Postby Alan E » Wed Mar 11, 2009 4:46 pm

Whether it's a common garment is dependant on time, place and context of course :) . In context of my OP the hooded cloaks (if they were hooded cloaks) were (probably) not common amongst Hawkwood's retinue, but for the funeral they were given to the entire retinue (apparently) and would then have been ... what? Retained as souvenirs of the event (the passing of a man regarded as a great leader) ? Given to the poor / an ecclesiastic institute?

Hence the question: Would these have been eccesiastic-type garments and potentially (as suggested by the quote) hooded? Saunders gives a bibliography but no direct references for this information, although it may be from Sharon T Strochia 'Death and Ritual in Renaissance Florence' which is apparently the source of a nearby quote. This is therefore secondary (at least - probably tertiary) evidence and I was wondering whether anyone know of any direct (translated?) evidence about these gifts, or the custom of giving them?

Oh, in that picture, there is a second gown with a self-hood which 'might' be integral (the grey one) - to my eyes anyway.


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Postby Alice the Huswyf » Wed Mar 11, 2009 5:52 pm

Now the artist has given the grey one a clearly delineated bottom edge, which argues that it is in fact a hood. In which case - the argument could run, given ONE garment is a hood and matching cote, another where the bag of the hood falls over the back of the wearer in such a way that it would hide any bottom edge - could also be a matching set.

So I'd have to say that this source in inconclusive.

And bear in mind that this is a FRENCH piece and as such should be taken with certain caveats unless you are recreating french medieval clothings.

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Postby Colin Middleton » Thu Mar 12, 2009 2:34 pm

Or is that grey hood like the blue one, so big that the sides of it fall over the shoulders. If that's the case, then like the blue hood, we can't see the cape (if there is one), so can't say if it's integral to the garment or a separate hood.

I'm with Lena, they're starting to look like gardecorpsto me too.


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Postby Alice the Huswyf » Thu Mar 12, 2009 3:49 pm

If that was the case, then you would have to cut the neck of the hood neck piece in a figure of 8 to produce that kind of fall and for garment to stay on the shoulders. It would be a tremendous waste of cloth at the social level of the dancers and no elegant enough to have any point further upt he social ladder where conspicuous consumption has a point.

The grey garment has to be a coat and hood - hence the black line sparating the pieces.

The blue garment I am open minded on becuase you can't prove what it is conclusively either way. Whatever it is, look - he is wearing the whole garment Batman cape stylee like little kids used to wear their anoraks on warm days when they were TOLD to keep their coats on. The other male garments shown don't have the fullness to produce those deep folds on his back if her was wearing it any other way. Sweeeet.



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Postby gregory23b » Thu Mar 12, 2009 7:01 pm

He is wearing a hood that is integral to the body or by sheer happenstance a matching hood to the body.

That pic is well known, I will have a look at the Wolfegg pics somethign about hooded capes is scratching at my head.


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Re: Joined hood on late C14, early C15 cloaks?

Postby Karen Larsdatter » Fri Mar 13, 2009 3:22 am

Alan E wrote:Does anyone have any evidence what the mourning cloaks handed out by Florence to the followers of Sir John Hawkwood (d. 1394) would have been?

This isn't direct evidence of the mourning-garb/black cloaks of the Hawkwood retinue et al, but I'd collected images and descriptions of mourning clothes for a posting at http://larsdatter.com/wordpress/?p=500 that might help -- it includes a link describing the funeral of the Earl of Flanders in 1384, too.



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Alan E
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Postby Alan E » Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:09 pm

Thanks Karen

Any other evidence (one way or the other)?


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