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Alice the Huswyf
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Post by Alice the Huswyf »

Yes, Greggie-love, to be sure it is only a hobby. And so - for the majority of middle England - is foaming at the mouth over minor details. And I am so good at it.

Thank you for explaining the why to me, people - I am learning new stuff. I like that. And the more esoteric, the better.

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Post by And So To Bed »

People who insist on doing aristocratic roles on screen or at events when they don't have the correct posture (almost more noticeable than dress in previous eras), or any manners to speak of, and for later periods, totally inappropriate accents.

People who do gentry and middle-class roles who are incapable of staying neat and/or clean. Yes I know it's difficult when you're sleeping in a tent in a field with mud like the Somme. But it was a sign of gentility to have white linens at least so if you can't make or buy enough changes of underlinens you should probably go down a class.
....and so home and to supper, and so to bed.

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Post by Kate Tiler »

Women's breasts hanging out like a 'pick & mix' pudding aisle.

There is one woman in her 40's who has worked a few of the same events as us and she is so 'out there' she is an embarrassment to be associated with! She's over-weight, haggard faced, sullen looking and practically naked from the waist up, at a 'historic' market in Bedford High Street outside M&S!

I also did get fed up with women at Kentwell hoisting their breasts over their shoulders & then complaining about the pervy men taking close up pictures!
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Post by steve stanley »

Dathi wrote:
steve stanley wrote:
Mad Mab wrote: Since I'm on a roll. People with unrepaired holes in their clothes, particularly along the stress lines. Clothes were valuable, I'm sure you would try to repair them (particularly at weak points) beofre they got worse no matter how bad the cobbling would be.
On the same roll....kit that never gets cleaned/washed/maintained on the grounds that it 'looks better'..They had to live & work with this stuff!!!

Empty snapsacks...See German Breadbags.

Victorian-style tankards hanging off the belts of 17thcent soldiers.

Inappropriate Beards........They are NOT compulsory because you're a re-enactor.......

19thcent spring-valved powder horns on anything earlier.

Doublets that don't hook/lace to breeches.

1620's doublets worn for high-staus 1640's

Now see what you've done...must go for a lie-down........
Steve
Ahh.. but 1620's doublets worn as 1640's High status are fine...as long as you're over 40 years in age yourself. The fashions you wear tend to stick to what was fashionable in your youth. I've got a reference to a late 40's Gent buying wrist and coller ruffs in 1644....
and if you look at the Dutch Milltia paintings you do see this.

Look here http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/h ... ebrat.html

Try left, gentleman in black talking to gent in armour sat down. This was painted in 1648. That's 1620's fashion in a 1648 painting of a group of men who existed and commissioned this picture
You is quite right!.......Maybe I should have phrased it better.....Why don't we see more 1640's doublets around?.....'Cos the earlier type is what traders tend to sell off-the-shelf..........
Steve
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Send me up in Grand River
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Post by lucy the tudor »

oh to have the boobs to get such a response.
I was once teased at the Rood fayre, by a gentleman trader, that I was particularly straining the lacing of my bodice, consciously I realised he probably was used to a less restrained chest in a medieval top, as opposed to my Tudor firm bodice, sub consciously I felt all girly and daft about it.
Must grow up :oops:
Kate, I can only agree the half naked chest look does not suit ladies of a certain age, but we know that if she had worn it with a jaunty smile, and a jolly approach to life, it would have been much more acceptable- sullen reenactors just make you wonder why they bother. If I didn't enjoy the job, I'd do something else! :wink:
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Alice the Huswyf
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Post by Alice the Huswyf »

The bosom, in most periods is covered with a kerhief/partlet/fichu/tucker/dickey or front during the day anyway. It is only in evening, bridal or ceremonial wear that the bosom is shown off, excepting in the very young and innocent.

Bizarrely, eroticism in dress is actually back to front - it is not what you show but what you hide - hence one music hall star making a total WOW in the '30's wearing a new style backless evening dress while serenaded by the male chorus to 'We're glad to see you're back, dear lady". Yet a female chorus line went on strike until their abbreviated tailcoat and shorts costume had a modest V neck filled in. They thought it indecent, yet would have happily worn plunging back decollete in their evening dresses, or even summer daydresses with an open back seam as a matter of present fashion.

C18th sexiness, in practise is in the waist and the hands, not - as one would suspect from modern representation - in the heaving bosom. Why ever else would the language of the fan become so developed? The fashion for wrist ribbons and bracelets on both wrists? Lace engageants to emphasise the slim wrist and bare forearm?

In high crinoline victorian dress - it's not so much the restrained waist and restrained arm as the ankle, becuase the rinoline cage was immensley mobile and tipped and swung when the wearer walked. Bear in mind that the space under the crinoline's superstructure was a large hollow. Men were treated to a constant peekaboo of an otherwise hidden appendage. It is very hard to display even your toe when sitting neatly in a modest, supported skirt.

" Here is a family dialogue on the newly popular hoop skirts, as reported in Harper's Weekly:

[Angelina, the sister]. There's a pretty creature, with the most charming toilet, and face and manners to match, throwing herself, with nonchalant grace, on an inviting lounge after a panting waltz. Well; unfortunately the hoop is a complete circle, and will not allow one fold of her airy drapery to fall around her feet. No; there it stands up, bearing aloft the edge of her garments almost on a level with her own reclining head!"

George [the brother]. "Yes, it is so; and I can assure you, girls, the display afforded to the beholders opposite is interesting beyond description! There's another thing. I know exactly the most popular style of garter only from passing the high stoops at the moment the young ladies happen to be going up and down the numerous steps. Some of them are very steep indeed, you know.

". . . No, I needn't be quiet [to his Aunt]! I only want to caution them [his sisters] to all things in proper order, for there are no longer any 'mysteries of the toilet'; every thing is open to the severest inspection! We see at once the full allowance of trimming, and whether any thing wants mending! Now, there's Mrs. _________. Well, well; don't be cross. I only wish to tell you to be careful that the under-garments do cover you; because the upper ones are so independent that they are no protection at all."

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Post by Shadowcat »

Related to the misplaced bosom - bare shoulders when either inappropriate or not period accurate. Witness a certain actress in 18th century costume, with bare shoulders, in a film with Kenneth Branagh - I think it was "Frankenstein". (Incidentally, as I recall, the dress was actually made correctly, over pocket hoops and petticoats, then the shoulders were pulled down for the shoot. I bet the designer was livid! Just checked, and he would have been - it was James Acheson, award winning designer of Restoration, Dangerous Liasons, Empire of the Sun and so on.)

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Post by Mad Mab »

Shadowcat wrote:Related to the misplaced bosom - bare shoulders when either inappropriate or not period accurate. Witness a certain actress in 18th century costume, with bare shoulders, in a film with Kenneth Branagh - I think it was "Frankenstein". (Incidentally, as I recall, the dress was actually made correctly, over pocket hoops and petticoats, then the shoulders were pulled down for the shoot. I bet the designer was livid! Just checked, and he would have been - it was James Acheson, award winning designer of Restoration, Dangerous Liasons, Empire of the Sun and so on.)

Suzi
:shock: Ouch! There are some cases in films and TV where you just want to prod and shiggle the actors and actresses so that they wear what looks to be perfectly decent clothing correctly (and sometimes you look at the clothing and realise there's no hope :( )

Body language can make such a difference. One of the things guaranteed to set me off (and it's not even a period drama) is Julia Roberts trying to do the 'femme fatale' walk in Ocean's 11. It doesn't seem to have clicked that, to pull it off, she needs to keep her upper body still and move from the hips. Instead, her shoulders roll up and down like she's striding across a field. It's made worse in the next film cause she's up against Catherine Zeta Jones who knows how to move (well, she should, she was a dancer).

It's probably good to get this out of my system before the season kicks in.

Oooh, ooh, ooh, one other thing and, admittedly, this is something you tend to see around the smaller events, but women in full C15th/C16th kit (depending on the event) carrying a handbag. And not even a period bag (which they would be carrying in an odd fashion anyway) but a modern handbag! ('But it's leather...')
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Post by lidimy »

Alice - thanks for the 18thC tips :oops:

I'm going to feel very self conscious when I go on my first 18thC outing now...

Is there anything else about 18thC posh lady etiquette that needs to be known? A bit of a Cuba but if you could PM me or email or so, I really would like to know as it's a period I still know very little about and I don't want to do it wrong!

Thank yoooooooooooooo =D
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Alice the Huswyf
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Post by Alice the Huswyf »

Go and see the thread I opened on General History - Nice manners for C18th Misses and Masters - help? - we should both get some advice there!

--------------

Isn't it a pity that our modern age has so underestimated the use of ribbon as personal adornment. We are so used to using jewelry that we have forgotten the value of ribbons; not just the cost of purchase, but the thought when given as a gift and the rarity / lack of choice in rural areas or poorer classes. It makes me rethink the excitement / concern over the arrival of pedlars in your area, with their tempting gew-gaws and potentially disturbing news of the wider world.

Ribbons were used and moved about and it is so easy to forget that even until recently, personal wardrobes were much more limited. Accessorising (ribbons, lace collars, sashes and silk flowers to trim bodices, hats, dresses or hair at need) , day-to-evening wear ( a skirt with matching day and evening bodices) and 'the capsule wardrobe' (a well chosen set of co-ordinating separates that can do double /triple duty together) is not a modern idea.

I'd like to see more of that. That is probably why the Lark Rise to Candleford (aka 'Bonnetwatch' in our house) costuming is working so well - the characters are repeating outfits, sometimes in different combinations and in Dorcas' case not all of it is constantly swanky-modes new which is absolutely fitting. It makes it so much more credible. They are all wearing clothes not costumes.

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Post by Dathi »

steve stanley wrote:
Dathi wrote:
steve stanley wrote: On the same roll....kit that never gets cleaned/washed/maintained on the grounds that it 'looks better'..They had to live & work with this stuff!!!

Empty snapsacks...See German Breadbags.

Victorian-style tankards hanging off the belts of 17thcent soldiers.

Inappropriate Beards........They are NOT compulsory because you're a re-enactor.......

19thcent spring-valved powder horns on anything earlier.

Doublets that don't hook/lace to breeches.

1620's doublets worn for high-staus 1640's

Now see what you've done...must go for a lie-down........
Steve
Ahh.. but 1620's doublets worn as 1640's High status are fine...as long as you're over 40 years in age yourself. The fashions you wear tend to stick to what was fashionable in your youth. I've got a reference to a late 40's Gent buying wrist and coller ruffs in 1644....
and if you look at the Dutch Milltia paintings you do see this.

Look here http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/h ... ebrat.html

Try left, gentleman in black talking to gent in armour sat down. This was painted in 1648. That's 1620's fashion in a 1648 painting of a group of men who existed and commissioned this picture
You is quite right!.......Maybe I should have phrased it better.....Why don't we see more 1640's doublets around?.....'Cos the earlier type is what traders tend to sell off-the-shelf..........
Steve
Actually, I 'd say, why don't we see more of a mix? 1620's, 1630's early 1640's and late 1640's. More black for best kit, more silks and satins, more gold and silver lace. Just look at the picture for the massive mix and flash being worn.

I once wandered into the Town hall in Osnabrück where one of the major peace conferences took place in 1648. A ring of pictures of the main dealers at the conference was around theupper wall in one hall. Only 2 people, both officer types, wore anything but black. The remaining 20 plus pictures all wore black.

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Post by gregory23b »

"Yes, Greggie-love, to be sure it is only a hobby. And so - for the majority of middle England - is foaming at the mouth over minor details"

Damn, my attempt at post-modern reenactment irony failed, damn and blast.

A main problem is that the typical imagery we are exposed to is the filmic one, jubblies out, wenches and people covered in mud and they are in reality entertaining. Regardless that in reality the soft underbelly of many periods are equally entertaining, shocking and downright rude and offer as many laughs as the made up ones.

I am very much looking forward to developing my mid 18thc kit, male, citizen kit, no weapons except maybe a cudgel, maybe a writing set or painting set, et voila.
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Alice the Huswyf
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Post by Alice the Huswyf »

I know you are an ironic beast. I, of course am a deeply academic and consistently serious personality.

Lah sirrah, the cully's greed! Has the Good Lord not provided him with cudgel enough nor quillage aplenty?

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Post by gregory23b »

Hah, I need a new chair, this one is soaking.

As for quillage dwahlling, one can never have too much of a fine thing, besides there are some nice 18thc bits, such as the button hole ink well, a turned horn well and stopper with a leather button tab, attached to the buttons, hey prestonpans and a travelling ink well.

It was suggested that I sort out a gainsborough folding easel and chair, whilst no way of that sort, it would eb a great prop and allow for some gentlemanly pursuit of the noble art. Also there are extant p;ieces that can be reproduced, all that kind fo stuff but in due course, first thing will be my:

breeches, drawers, shirt, hat, waistcoat and a new coat 1750s style, shoes, then cudgels and inkwells etc.

I say, I do believe that is the Marquis of Didsbury at the Cock and Chaff, I might go over and mump a pot or two off him.
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Alice the Huswyf
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Post by Alice the Huswyf »

All this talk of inkhorns, and underbreeches - it's now very tempting to spawn a third thread: "The Smut-Puppy's Gazeteer or Talking Feelth in a Georgian Stylee."

However, as everyone knows, my one weakness is self-restraint.....

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Post by Phil the Grips »

It's already been done and packaged for you in one convenient volume :)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Vulgar-Tongue-B ... 1840244135
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Post by steve stanley »

Dathi wrote: Actually, I 'd say, why don't we see more of a mix? 1620's, 1630's early 1640's and late 1640's. More black for best kit, more silks and satins, more gold and silver lace. Just look at the picture for the massive mix and flash being worn.

I once wandered into the Town hall in Osnabrück where one of the major peace conferences took place in 1648. A ring of pictures of the main dealers at the conference was around theupper wall in one hall. Only 2 people, both officer types, wore anything but black. The remaining 20 plus pictures all wore black.
Quite agree..Of course,there are no kit regs for Officers.... :) ...But I really think combining a cheap doublet with a sash & soldier's kit is not acceptable any more............
Steve
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Send me up in Grand River
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Post by zauberdachs »

steve stanley wrote:Inappropriate Beards........They are NOT compulsory because you're a re-enactor.......
Dang. Oh well you beat me to it.

Also, I'll add people with mud deliberately smeared all over their faces as if this makes them more "muddievil." Usually the same crew who are covering their modern camping chairs with Hessian to make them aufentic.
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Post by Marcus Woodhouse »

Is that the same hessian that was invented in the 19th century? :?
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Post by Alice the Huswyf »

No, you are thinking of hessian, which was indeed invented in the C19th.

We are talking of Hessian, a magical and mysterious textile a mere wrap of which transforms all items to glorious period reconstruction. Deckchairs become thrones, trainers become entirely handstitched shoes of vegetable tanned unicorn hide. Without Hessian, Henry VIII wouldn't have pulled, Charles would not have been restored to the throne, George wouldn't have been able to get rid of the American colonies , the Mary Rose would not have been raised and I would still be a size 12.

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Post by steve stanley »

Alice the Huswyf wrote:No, you are thinking of hessian, which was indeed invented in the C19th.

We are talking of Hessian, a magical and mysterious textile a mere wrap of which transforms all items to glorious period reconstruction. Deckchairs become thrones, trainers become entirely handstitched shoes of vegetable tanned unicorn hide. Without Hessian, Henry VIII wouldn't have pulled, Charles would not have been restored to the throne, George wouldn't have been able to get rid of the American colonies , the Mary Rose would not have been raised and I would still be a size 12.
All those poor Germans being skinned............ :lol:
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Send me up in Grand River
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Alice the Huswyf
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Post by Alice the Huswyf »

.....another thing is Steve Stanley's sick and twisted mind.

Next he'll be telling us that there have been instances of real, modern cannibals in Germany, with volunteer victims.

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Post by steve stanley »

Alice the Huswyf wrote:.....another thing is Steve Stanley's sick and twisted mind.

Next he'll be telling us that there have been instances of real, modern cannibals in Germany, with volunteer victims.
Missed that one!..'tho I recall the Dusseldorf case of 1929..No volunteers there!
Steve
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Post by Tuppence »

My own pet bugbears....

Those s*****g all-in-one dresses with the split at the front. They bear absolutely no relation to anything in existence at the time. And if you are going to wear them, a shift is not an underskirt.

Black shirts. Red shirts. Any non white / off white shirts.

The trouser waist. AAAAAAAARRRRRGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Shoulder pads (that new york tailor has a lot to answer for).

Desert boots with cut outs to make them look like latchets (I'd burn them given the chance).

Women who think they can wander around with nothing on their heads, and (the tops of) their boobs uncovered.

Blokes who get all modest when they order hosen with codpieces - no the codpiece doesn't go all the way up to the waist - look at the pictures....

Furniture braid on 17th century stuff. Yes some of it looks vaguely right, but... And I know I'm guilty of that one too, but only under duress.


I'd say that the lack of variety in men's C17th suits and the like is down to a lack of looking at historical evidence. And the off the peg stuff. Most of the off the peg stuff is blatantly wrong anyway - and it's not correctly constructed (too limp).

And while we're nthe subject, many people with C17th suits are far too fond of cloak bag breeches....

And of 1620s doublets - which yes, right - but where are the bombasted breeches?


Cotton lycra hose. And modern socks and stockings (or in fact anything made by Funn).


Bodices with no corsetry underneath.


Anybody who insists on being upper class and refuses to change down to being lower class (even if the lower class is a peasant).


People who ban things without doing the research. Like the person who banned bobbin lace in the C16th despite the small mountain of references to it.


Medieval men who insist on wearing swords all the time, even in civvie settings.


Any men who wear swords and forget they're wearing tham, and bat you with them every time they go past you (they can be snapped, you know!).



People who think it's fine to use evidence for 50 - 100 years either side of a given date, even when there's ample evidence for the given date (though you do have to bother to look for it). EG using the Luttrell Psalter for 1300.



People (mostly traders) who call something '**** century' when said item bears no resemblance to anything remotely from that century.



Nylon.

Anything beginning poly....


The whole cotton debate (not really that hard - fabric 17th C earliest, gradually reducing in price from ****ing expensive to cheap - raw fibre medieval earliest (14thC) ). It doesn't grow here!!!!!!!
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Post by steve stanley »

Feeling better now,Debs....?
Steve
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Send me up in Grand River
Steering by star and sun".
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Alice the Huswyf
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Post by Alice the Huswyf »

Debs, you spoilsport! That could have made at least three pages of posts if eked our properly.

Presently looking at Regency and having frissons already ...

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Post by Shadowcat »

Alice the Huswyf wrote: Presently looking at Regency and having frissons already ...
O.K. if you want to bring Regency in, frocks that start half way down the bust and not under the bust, oh, and talking of wayward bosoms, low bustlines. Some of the fashion plates I have collected have the bust almost under the chin!

Suzi
Last edited by Shadowcat on Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Alice the Huswyf »

Yes - the eternal conundrum: puppies in natural breast periods, dugs in puppy periods.

(Shall I now add necklines dragged over shoulders in any and most innapropriate periods, but very few sucessfully trying the periods where shoulders are on show becuase it is really difficult to fit so that the shoulderline doesn't droop or cut in unflatteringly )

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Post by Shadowcat »

Alice the Huswyf wrote:
(Shall I now add necklines dragged over shoulders in any and most innapropriate periods, but very few sucessfully trying the periods where shoulders are on show becuase it is really difficult to fit so that the shoulderline doesn't droop or cut in unflatteringly )
I'm already fretting about "The Young Victoria", and to those who say "Does it really matter" it does when someone brings you a shot of a frock from a movie, and says - "I want this really authentic costume please" and you have to break it to them gently - viz "Elizabeth the Golden Years" - faugh! (Gary Oldman's Dracula anyone?)

Suzi

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Post by Medicus Matt »

Kate Tiler wrote:Women's breasts hanging out like a 'pick & mix' pudding aisle.
Where?
I'm obviously doing the wrong periods.
:(
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