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Pourpoint

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 12:26 pm
by zauberdachs
Hey,

I'm looking into having a pourpoint made and was wondering if anyone has a good little stash of info on pourpoints for the mid to later 15th century?

Thanks

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 12:31 pm
by Sophia
Pourpoint is a medieaval word indicating a garment to which things are pointed - it can be used for a doublet or for the garment to which armour is pointed.

What purpose do you want this garment for? That should be the starting point for your research.

Soph :D

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 12:44 pm
by zauberdachs
Sophia wrote:Pourpoint is a medieaval word indicating a garment to which things are pointed - it can be used for a doublet or for the garment to which armour is pointed.

What purpose do you want this garment for? That should be the starting point for your research.

Soph :D


Sorry, I was looking for evidence for a linen under garment to point my hose to when armed?

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 12:52 pm
by Sophia
Aha - now much clearer. :D

Unfortunately can't really help as not my field of interest - the most common term I have heard for a garment to which you point hose is also one to which you point armour, i.e. arming doublet.

Sorry can't be of more use - why can't you ask an interesting question about something useful like apron styles :wink:

Soph :D

Re: Pourpoint

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 1:01 pm
by Jim
zauberdachs wrote:Hey,

I'm looking into having a pourpoint made and was wondering if anyone has a good little stash of info on pourpoints for the mid to later 15th century?

Thanks


I get the impression that a "pourpoint" as we reenactors term it is merely the sleeveless version of a doublet, such that it looks more like a waistcoat.

Re: Pourpoint

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 1:11 pm
by zauberdachs
Jim wrote:
zauberdachs wrote:Hey,

I'm looking into having a pourpoint made and was wondering if anyone has a good little stash of info on pourpoints for the mid to later 15th century?

Thanks


I get the impression that a "pourpoint" as we reenactors term it is merely the sleeveless version of a doublet, such that it looks more like a waistcoat.


Is there any evidence for it?

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 1:40 pm
by Jenn
As I understand it - there isn't really (am of course prepared to be shouted down on this but looking at my pictures etc). Wasn't term a WC one?
Hose should in general (because I just know someone will find a picture showing something different) be laced to a doublet about 10-15cm below your waist at the period you're thinking of but the waist rose as the century comes to a close. It could sometimes have detachable (that is laced in ones) sleeves. However it appears that it was more common to have sewn in sleeves and to lace your hose to your doublet and then have a gown over the top so the garment called a pourpoint wouldn't need to exist.
Except ...however whilst this obviously fine for walking around you may wish to consider your options for fighting - which I think is where this solution generally has come in.
Edited to correct grammar

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 1:46 pm
by zauberdachs
Jenn wrote:As I understand it - there isn't really (am of course prepared to be shouted down on this but looking at my pictures etc). Wasn't term a WTC one?
Hose should in general (because I just know someone will find a picture showing something different) be laced to a doublet about 10-15cm below your waist at the period you're thinking of but the waist rose as the century comes to a close. It could sometimes have detachable (that is laced in ones) sleeves. However it appears that it was more common to have sewn in sleeves and to lace your hose to your doublet and then have a gown over the top so the garment called a pourpoint wouldn't need to exist.
Except ...however whilst this obviously fine for walking around you may wish to consider your options for fighting - which I think is where this solution general has come in.


Very interesting. So essentially this is something that people have extrapolated rather than proven. Hmmm... perhaps it should be an addition to the "re-enactorisms" thread?

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 4:57 pm
by seamsmistress
I think you're looking for a petticote or petty jack.

These are mentioned in a Handbook of Later Medieval Mens Dress, 14th & 15th C by Dave Rushworth.

Quote" The Doublet Always fitted to the body, always lined, often interlined. A sleeveless version called a petticoat was sometimes worn under armour or padded jack to hold up the hose. NB Petticoat is sleevless and does not meet at the front. This is so it laces tight to the body. In one french manuscript it is described as of 2 thicknesses of linen, 2 fingers wide at the shoulders, and 3/4 in the body, ie it only goes 3/4 of the way round".

Sadly, he doesn't list his sources so i can't point you towards the French manuscript, although you could always give him a ring and ask!

I've made many of these, as described in the manuscript. My husband has been wearing his for 8 years and still going strong with the occasional repair. He finds it particularly useful in hot weather, as it means he can dispense with his 'hot' doublet of wool. He often will shrug his arms out, so that it drops down behind whilst still laced across the stomach and it still holds the hose well when worn that way. I do have evidence somewhere which shows a doublet being worn in the same way by a torturer at work! In winter, it's an extra warm layer.

Hope this helps

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 5:10 pm
by Vicky
The reference Dave Rushworth mentions is listed in the discussion on this thread:

http://www.livinghistory.co.uk/forums/v ... hp?t=15017

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 6:27 pm
by guthrie
Yoo hoo!
You could have asked us first. We're only, like, you know, in your group...

I had the Dave Rushworth handbook, but someone seems to have borrowed it and not given it back...

And yes, it is generally agreed that sleeveless linen pourpoints to hold your hose up, outside armour use, are a re-enactorism earlier in the 15th century, although I've got a picture somewhere of one just a smidgen before 1500, albeit on the continent.

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 6:34 pm
by Jenn
why have this coversation in person
right we're all agreed then

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 6:56 pm
by zauberdachs
guthrie wrote:Yoo hoo!
You could have asked us first. We're only, like, you know, in your group...


If I post on here I actually get you plus everyone else. It's amazing. ;)

Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 12:40 pm
by Colin Middleton
The manuscript that Dave is looking at (as described on the other thread) is from a FRENCH specification for Jacks (it's also quoted in Medieval Militarty Costumes by Gerry Embleton). It is likely that pourpoint is a French word meaning doublet.

The recomendation for a sleevless, unpadded garmen assumes that you will be wearing a thick, heavy jack and you will want to 'float within it', so as not be be further encumbered by the two layers interacting.

Personally I would be inclined to wear a lightly padded doublet (made of linnen) under a lighter jack than the ones described here. The Paston letters makes a passing reference to a doublet being stab proof, while the Howard Accounts describe a Jack 18 layers thick on the front, slightly thiner on the back and lighter still on that arms.

Your arming doublet should hold your hosen up as well as your leg harness.

Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 12:57 pm
by zauberdachs
Colin Middleton wrote:The manuscript that Dave is looking at (as described on the other thread) is from a FRENCH specification for Jacks (it's also quoted in Medieval Militarty Costumes by Gerry Embleton). It is likely that pourpoint is a French word meaning doublet.

The recomendation for a sleevless, unpadded garmen assumes that you will be wearing a thick, heavy jack and you will want to 'float within it', so as not be be further encumbered by the two layers interacting.

Personally I would be inclined to wear a lightly padded doublet (made of linnen) under a lighter jack than the ones described here. The Paston letters makes a passing reference to a doublet being stab proof, while the Howard Accounts describe a Jack 18 layers thick on the front, slightly thiner on the back and lighter still on that arms.

Your arming doublet should hold your hosen up as well as your leg harness.


That sounds perfect!

Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 4:08 pm
by Jenn
I live to serve..