Making a Heraldric bishop mitres helmet.

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Making a Heraldric bishop mitres helmet.

Postby Templar Knight » Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:32 pm

I want to make a helmet with a bishops mitre on it, after seeing it on a King and Country model. Just wondering what would I make it out of, I would love to wear it in fights rather than switch to a different helmet. So what do I make it out of so it doesnt smash easily. Also is there anyway I can find the coat of arms to Jacques de Vitry Bishop of Acre who fought in the siege of Damietta from 1218 to 1220. I will probably base the costume around him, so any info people know on him that is maybe from rare texts will be well appreciated, I know he is in the God's Soldiers book where he wrote on the Knight Templar.
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Postby Sygtrygg Athlunkard » Tue Sep 02, 2008 5:03 pm

Would this not attract to many infidels to 'bash the bishop' ! :lol:

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Postby Brother Ranulf » Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:22 pm

An interesting question to which there is probably no definitive answer.

Church heraldry was not formalised until the 17th century; prior to this, bishops may not have had their own blazon of arms - if they did, it should have been combined with the arms of their episcopal seat (in this case, Acre).

Unlike knights, bishops were not normally granted hereditary arms to be passed to the eldest son; but there is the problem that European heraldry has radically different rules to those of merry England. In some cases (Poland, parts of Germany and Austria) there seems to have been a complete lack of rules of any kind, at least compared with the English system.


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Postby Templar Knight » Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:35 pm

Sygtrygg Athlunkard wrote:Would this not attract to many infidels to 'bash the bishop' ! :lol:


Lol, let them come, Ill bash them back!!! RARRR :twisted:


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Postby Templar Knight » Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:39 pm

Hmm, so is the Tunic the Bishop is wearing in this tunic is to do with the Church. That is the bishop of tours but I dont know which one, and he appears to be wearing a Templar Tunic or just as possibe a crusading style tunic.
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Postby Brother Ranulf » Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:50 pm

I would say it comes under the heading "Speculation, Wishful Thinking and Imagination" rather than any real historical evidence.


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Postby Templar Knight » Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:56 pm

hmmm, I shall dwell on it and if I find any real historical evidence then I shall do it, but i might anyway because it looks hell as cool.


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Postby Malvoisin » Tue Sep 02, 2008 7:18 pm

Also is there anyway I can find the coat of arms to Jacques de Vitry Bishop of Acre


I don't wish to sound like an *rse but have you tried going to a main library and doing some research instead of thumbing through toy soldier mags? :wink:

Jacques de Vitry has alot written about him:- http://www.fiu.edu/~mirandas/bios1228.htm I'm sure you could find something from that bibliography....

And this could be his coat of arms:- http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k914067/f224.table but it's from the 1600's and possibly pure fantasy; how's your french.

And ignore the comments about "bashing the bishop" as your under 18 you shouldn't be knowing about such things. :lol:


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Postby Templar Knight » Tue Sep 02, 2008 7:32 pm

Malvoisin wrote:
Also is there anyway I can find the coat of arms to Jacques de Vitry Bishop of Acre


I don't wish to sound like an *rse but have you tried going to a main library and doing some research instead of thumbing through toy soldier mags? :wink:


And this could be his coat of arms:- http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k914067/f224.table but it's from the 1600's and possibly pure fantasy; how's your french.


Umm well as you say im under 18 and dont really think i would be able to get to a main libary that would have such information. Hmmm french, not really my subject nevertheless i shall have a poke.


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Postby Nigel » Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:16 pm

Why not I ahd library acces at the age of 8 to the main librbary and the research section should be open to all

So get off your bum and do some reading


There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

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Postby Templar Knight » Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:25 pm

Nigel wrote:Why not I ahd library acces at the age of 8 to the main librbary and the research section should be open to all

So get off your bum and do some reading


:cry: lol, umm well im back to school tommorow so will have to wait till next weekend, have looked at my local libary but they have no real medieval section, they had nothing on the Knight Templar when I was down there researching.


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Postby Nigel » Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:38 pm

Brother Ranulf wrote:I would say it comes under the heading "Speculation, Wishful Thinking and Imagination" rather than any real historical evidence.


bloddy hell I agree with BR but he is correct


There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

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Postby k8 baker » Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:42 am

Templar Knight -

Ask the librairian they are humans and will help you search for the stuff you want, it might involve ordering books by Inter Library Loans. It used to cost to order books that way but I think under 18s didn't pay. It will give you great experience in doing research which may prover useful if you want to take your studies further.

You could also fire the question to the educational officer at your local museum or the Leeds Royal Armoury.

Good luck anyway and show off to us how clever you are by publishing any interesting finds here.


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Postby Templar Knight » Wed Sep 03, 2008 5:07 pm

k8 baker wrote:Templar Knight -

Good luck anyway and show off to us how clever you are by publishing any interesting finds here.


clever lol, im an absolute tard and can do nothing lol. I will find something eventually but you will be waiting a long time so keep an eye out.


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Postby robjones999 » Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:14 pm

The only contemporary illustration I have seen of a bishop's mitre on a helmet of the period you are looking at is from a manuscript illustrated by Matthew Paris. http://www.imagesonline.bl.uk/results.asp?image=040159&imagex=1&searchnum=2 The text describes the capture of the Bishop of Beauvais by Richard I in 1196. According to the source Richard refused to release the bishop, despite the request of the Papal Legate, because the Bishop had been captuired not as a clergyman but as a knight in battle.

I suspect Paris' image is as much a visual cue to the idea of the Bishop in armour on the battlefield (where he should not have been, striictly speaking) than an actual representation of how the bishop was dressed.

If such a crest were to be worn it would like as not, and in common with most other crests, have been made from a form of papier maché. Whilst this would not be sturdy enough for your purposes, for the medieval knight a crest was a throw-away item that could be repaired on a regular basis.



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Postby Templar Knight » Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:27 pm

Thinking about it and seeing that, there must of been so many things that werent recorded, so there is a chance someone did it, i know later period artists draw the earlier periods with their fashion but maybe they do have some inspiration, and if those artist can think of it im sure someone back then has done it. So im going to do it, because there is always the possibility of it. And wow paper machae didnt know that, well yeah i do need something stronger i havent got time to paint a new one every time if gets ripped.


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Postby Thrud » Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:34 pm

I can't help thinking they would be fabric like the normal mitres but slightly larger to go on the helmet.


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Postby Templar Knight » Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:39 pm

yeah i agree but dont the normal ones have something inside like wood to keep their shape, and what fabric you recon they were


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Postby robjones999 » Thu Sep 25, 2008 5:08 pm

I can see you argument and, whilst I think it's a bit spurious (it effectively allows you huge amounts of latitude in what you do), I can't say more than "fair enough". Crests could be quite extreme - just look at the drawings for the tourneyers in the Manesse Codex. Whilst these are for tournament I am not wholly convinced that there was as much difference between war-gear and tournament gear as some suggest.

Mitres are indeed made of cloth, stiffened with an interlining of leather or buckram or some other thick cloth, just as a doublet is stiffened. As to the material - brocaded silks, embroidered in gold and semi-precious gems. There's an example of one from 1561 in Upsala cathedral (do a Google search and I think you'll find piccies).



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Postby Colin Middleton » Fri Sep 26, 2008 12:42 pm

The crests were sometimes made round a wooden core, but a solid block of wood that size could get heavy and I'd worry about the strain on your neck if it takes a lateral blow. I'd be inclined to go with Thrud on that one.

Be careful of the Lack of Evidence is Not Evidence of Lack (LENEL) argument. There is no evidence that they didn't use lycra, but that doesn't mean that it's acceptable in most societies.


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Postby gregory23b » Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:33 pm

A lot of crests are also hollow, made form formed leather and reinforced with gesso to give it form, keeping weight down and size up. A few survive and at least one account on how to make (one of that sort) exists.

If it is a 'real' mitre, then you make it as a 'proper' one with a measure of reinforcment to keep its shape, then attach it to the helm in the appropriate way for that style of lid.

If you look at the many 15th c pics of crested nobles, you will see a huge range of possibly manufactures, one that springs to mind in the woman's hennin, I would suppose that a real hennin, or prety much a proper one is spot on for that, rather than a manufactured one that might be heavier etc.

Crests have to be practical, as Colin is getting at, too heavy and they add weight, too cumbersome and they can cause imbalance.


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Postby Templar Knight » Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:55 pm

hmmmmmm, there is a lot to consider , i know that just because it wasnt there means it was could of been there, but I suppose if I cant find any real evidenc and I make it I shall keep it as a lil project just for myself and not events.


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Postby GuyDeDinan » Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:45 pm

Poke the figure manufacturer and ask them where they are getting their sources - ask them for actual references and pictoral evidence. Has worked for me before when talking Macedonian dynasty Byzantines with the Gripping Beast designers.

PS I note your templar interest, forget the penny dreadfuls, wargame figures and a certain computer game as sources, get digging into the academic research side. University of London runs a Crusader Studies MA and I'm sure you can run down reading lists that can form the core of your research and identify remaining sites and tomb effigies that will form a better idea of your potential kit.



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Postby Templar Knight » Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:59 pm

ooo good idea will give them a buzz. I know there is better research I could get but its just getting it, I dont travel and can't afford train tickets around the country, although deffinatley need to go to Templar Church. But GCSE's take priority before spending hours researching lol, so probably when I finish school I will be able to go out and hunt everything down.


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Postby GuyDeDinan » Mon Sep 29, 2008 10:25 pm

Good practice for later, unless the History A level is now a picture round......



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Postby Colin Middleton » Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:17 pm

At least get the Osprey book about the templars. They may not the best source, but have been researched and are short and digestable and have nice pictures. It'll be better than basing it on Holywood and imagination.


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Postby robjones999 » Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:34 pm

The Osprey on the Templars was written by Helen Nicholson whos is a specialist in the history of the ilitary orders. I know her well and would trust her research as it is impeccable. The colour plates, as with all Ospreys, can occasionally fall short of the text, but are on the whole good educated guesses (and the descriptions tell you where a guess has been made).



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Postby Colin Middleton » Mon Nov 03, 2008 8:41 pm

That's not to say that the editor didn't butcher her research. There's only so much information that can put in a book that size and as you said the pictures could be less acurate than we'd like them to be.

Good to know that it's a solid starting point though Rob.


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Postby robjones999 » Mon Nov 03, 2008 11:47 pm

Colin Middleton wrote:That's not to say that the editor didn't butcher her research.


Fair point.



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Re: Making a Heraldric bishop mitres helmet.

Postby Templar Knight » Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:06 am

Reviving an old thread, bishop adhemar from the first crusade is pictured with a mitre over a coif
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