Sleeves and Darts

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Sarah Elessar
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Sleeves and Darts

Postby Sarah Elessar » Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:54 pm

I have 2 questions about C15th kirtles...

Firstly, how authentic are separate sleeves? Am thinking of making a sleeveless kirtle, and pointing on separate sleeves (avoids setting in sleeves etc, which I find a nightmare to do..

Secondly, what about darts? I'm finding I cant shape the kirtle well around my bust, but it fitted perfectly when I added a couple of darts, however I don't know how authentic these are...

I don't want to get it "wrong"!



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Alice the Huswyf
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Postby Alice the Huswyf » Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:58 pm

NO DARTS. Fit is actually created by taking in the side seams and the front lacing edge wetween the breasts if the earlier, simpler 4 panel kirtle. Also bear in mind that in wear the fabric stetches and shrinks, which ads to the fit once it has been worn for some time. Otherwise you are looking at a 6 or 8 panel kirtle with vertical shapng lines which should NOT curve off into the armput at back or front (this is a modern fitting style).

NO POINTED ON SLEEVES. Separate sleeves are authentic only if they are lower sleeves pinned onto a short sleeve fully set into the sleevehole. The full length separate sleeves laced onto the armhole whihc you might be thinking of are a total re-enactorism based on Late Tudor or Italian Renaissance fashion (and if so might as well be happening on Mars for all the relevance they have to C15th english clothing). The only reference there is for lace-on sleeves are for a paltock, a frowned-upon man's 'waistcoat' with detachable sleeves which bends sumptuary rules by pretending to be a whole doublet worn under a gown and all made of expensive fabric (in fact only the sleeves are made of such). Frowned on becuase it allowed people to dress above their station.

NO SLEEVELESS KIRTLES apart from the hypothesised sleeveless kirtle to be worn under a formal high status gown. This is constructed in a totally different method, late to period and is rarely worn except as an under garment.

It is worth doing properley becuase clothes evolve to suit conditions and you will be much more comfortable if are wearing the right thing.

Have you looked a the Sarah Thursfield book The Medieval Tailor's Assistant? It is very helpful. Otherwise buy one of Petty Chapman's patterns.



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Sarah Elessar
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Postby Sarah Elessar » Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:04 pm

Thank you! I wasn't sure about either, hence why I thought I'd ask!

Guess I'd better get working on a sleeve pattern block then...

I've got the Sarah Thursfield book, which is what I am working from, and it didn't mention the separate sleeves, so I just thought I'd ask, as I have seen people wearing them!

The reason I asked about darts was because I have followed all the instructions in the book, and still cant get it to fit quite right over the bust, but ah well, guess it'll just have to be a bit baggy there...

Thanks for the advice :)



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Alice the Huswyf
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Postby Alice the Huswyf » Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:41 pm

Make it snug. Intially you will be a bit squished, but as you wear it the fabric will stretch with your breasts. Also bear in mind that the finers aesthetics of fit change with fashion.



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Sarah Elessar
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Postby Sarah Elessar » Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:43 pm

Yeh, that's what I figured... with the lacings down the front it'll be somewhat adjustable too.



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Tuppence
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Postby Tuppence » Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:57 pm

what she said.

a decent wool is a help too, cos of the way it behaves.

my c15th dress has no darts at all, and works perfectly (though I rarely wear it now. and I'm a g cup!


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Alice the Huswyf
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Postby Alice the Huswyf » Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:32 pm

That woman is just boasting. Personally I am a storm in a T-cup.



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Colin Middleton
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Postby Colin Middleton » Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:46 pm

If you're trying to fit your block without help that may also contribute to your problems.


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Tuppence
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Postby Tuppence » Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:57 pm

Not rally necessary to cut a body block before making this king of frock - just draw the flat pattern, then if you're not certain about it, make up a toile in cotton or similar to check the fit.

Much easier.


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