Cotton in period

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Merlon.
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Post by Merlon. »

cotton references actually being wool.
If you look in the OED you find
A woollen fabric of the nature of frieze, largely manufactured in Lancashire, Westmorland, and Wales (Manchester, Kendal, and Welsh cotton).
attrib. 1503 Privy Purse Exp. Eliz. of York (Beck Draper's Dict.), For v yerdes of cotton russet for the Quenes choare
1598 HAKLUYT Voyages. I. 98 (R.) The poorer sort do line their clothes with cotton-cloth, which is made of the finest wool they can pick out

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Post by gregory23b »

There are also clear comments re cotton wool, ie in boll, or bombasina.

And contexts for it being yarn - wicks - wool would not wick and would shrivel when burned and cloth as an alternative to linen, wool is not an alternative.

Whilst there is wool cloth called cotton, there is an earlier ref for the cotton russet in the MED, there is almost certainly a cross over in terms.

I by no means support the cotton as a viable widespread clothh, as it seems odd, but as a material of stuff it is recorded.

Any concensus on the use of cotton cloth? I suspect not to, in oprder to err on the side of caution.

FWIW I would favour linen any day, much nicer material ;-)
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Post by Nigel »

Merlon. wrote:cotton references actually being wool.
If you look in the OED you find
A woollen fabric of the nature of frieze, largely manufactured in Lancashire, Westmorland, and Wales (Manchester, Kendal, and Welsh cotton).
attrib. 1503 Privy Purse Exp. Eliz. of York (Beck Draper's Dict.), For v yerdes of cotton russet for the Quenes choare
1598 HAKLUYT Voyages. I. 98 (R.) The poorer sort do line their clothes with cotton-cloth, which is made of the finest wool they can pick out
nice one Paul BUT this is about HIGH medeival usage context is all so get me something dated about 1200 and I'll give you a bottle of something smooth

On and welcome to one of the more fun rows we are ahving
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Post by Ariarnia »

My main question is still 'why would you allow silk but not cotton?'

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Post by Merlon. »

Evening, Nigel depends on what you mean about a usage context.
Do you want one for the cotton staple, cotton element in cloth or cotton cloth as we would regard it today.
This entire thread seems to suffer from the reenactor ailment of taking words out of context.
The Mazzaoui text "The Cotton Industry of Northern Italy in the Late Middle Ages: 1150-1450" contains a lot of the answers. Even though it was savaged in the academic press when published
At the beginning of the 13th century Northern Italy was a massive producer of cotton cloth and continued to be so until the cotton cloth production took off in the southern Germany area in the mid 14th century.
Brother Ranulf the majority of any cotton imports into England took the form of finished cloth and not yarn. Cotton cloth production did not take off in England until the time of the new draperies in the 16th century and later.
So yes cotton cloth is available and you can use it if you are rich enough and of sufficient status. The next point is what form does this cotton cloth take?
one word answer is Fustian. The linen threds are needed because the loom technology needs their strength to make vaiable cloth can be made in several forms the most luxurious with a nap effectively a cotton velvet. (which again is why these things have to be kept under tight control, imagine some renactors with cotton velvet aaaaaargh) That is the usually used for the table cloths because of the plush finish.
This begins to explain why you get wool cottons, eventually they started to make make friezes which is a napped wool cloth which emulates the nap of the "cotton" so they became known as cottons in their own right.
Then from about 1690 onwards you start to get cotton cloth as most people understand it today warp and weft of cotton light airy cloth, because of improvments in loom technology. But totally un-medieval.

It is just as much about banning the incorrect forms of cotton as about banning cotton outright.

You can have a cotton underdress, just needs to be made out of fustian

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Post by Sophia »

We have more evidence for silk than we have for cotton - i.e. actual preserved items/archaeological finds. We find silk in conjunction with wool in finds and there are more specific mentions of what is definitely known to be silk cloth in the import records. On the rare occasions that we have surviving vegetable fibres in the archaeological record they are as far as I am aware linen for this period.

This being said my area of speciality is C15th and C16th costume and textiles. However, I do not see cotton falling out of use over time, indeed if we take the example of fustian which has been referred to a number of time it becomes cheaper over time. (n.b. fustian came from several places and can have either a wool or linen warp but always a cotton weft). The best fustian, i.e. naples was almost like velvet while later cheaper fustians were more canvas like in texture. By the C17th it is being used for relatively low class garments.

Apologies for the lack of references but it is late.

By shopping around and visiting all the fabric shops as well as the Living History Fayre and The Original Re-enactors Market I am able to source my wool and linen of the right weight at very reasonable prices. For linen (bleached and off-white) for undergarments and linings I am often able to negotiate a discount as I buy by the bolt since I make everything for me and my husband plus occasionally selling on to friends at cost. As a group you should be able to club together and organise bulk purchases.

If you need details of places to go for fabric there is a stickied thread at the top of this section of the forum.

Finally, I am now of the firm opinion that unless you can support the full panoply which is frankly impossible as a student unless you have a private income, you shoul stick to the lower classes and do it well. Over the last few years we have spent about twice my yearly income as a student and the more I learn the more I can pick holes in what we have in the way of clothes and equipment. There are some fairly expensive mistakes - mainly too high status garments or things made to incorrect patterns or even in the wrong fabric - languishing in cupboards. What is more neither of us are fighters except when we join the gun crews for our C15th group, which means we do not have the added expense of fighting kit (mail, padding, weapons, etc.)

Sophia :D
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Post by Ariarnia »

Sophia wrote: If you need details of places to go for fabric there is a stickied thread at the top of this section of the forum...
We actually source our fabrics from stockist in Liverpool mainly. Some very good deals as they sell by weight rather than yardage. We do also use stuff got at torm/ nlhf and some other sites, depending what we need, but in Liverpool you can actually see it and feel it before buying. And it’s not only twice a year.
Sophia wrote: Finally, I am now of the firm opinion that unless you can support the full panoply which is frankly impossible as a student unless you have a private income, you shoul stick to the lower classes and do it well. Over the last few years we have spent about twice my yearly income as a student and the more I learn the more I can pick holes in what we have in the way of clothes and equipment.
I am a student, yes, but I have also worked independently and I actually find that as a student I have much more disposable income. I do not have to pay taxes, I am in very cheap accommodation with the bills included, I am tee total and fairly recluse and so I have a min 3000 a year to spend on shinnies, and that’s just me.

I have an independent income on top of this as I also work as an admin earning about £15 per hour or get 10% commission on grant applications/admin/accountancy for a local community group.

Sophia wrote:What is more neither of us are fighters except when we join the gun crews for our C15th group, which means we do not have the added expense of fighting kit (mail, padding, weapons, etc.)
I am not a fighter, but once my partner was kitted up there is little to buy him. I am actually resorting to a new helm and a Paul Binn custom order for his birthday as he has all else he needs.

I do not say any of this to be smug, but if I wear cotton it is not because it is cheaper or easier.

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Post by Merlon. »

I presume you mean Abakhans in Liverpool, their hey-day was back in the early nineties. These days the quality of their cloth is extremely variable as are their cloth descriptions

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Post by Ariarnia »

Probably, I'm awful with names, there are about three of them close together.

The quality is why I like to go and see them. I never really liked ordering of the internet.

I'll do it with bulk if I have to.

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Post by nathan »

Excuse the cuba ...
Hobbitstomper wrote:I call it pseudo-banded mail because it might not be right but it looks like some of the pictures and effigies. It is made just like mail but every 3rd row is replaced by a flat washer (M8 light steel washers with 1.5mm square section 8mm mail washers in this case).
... done the same with a very thin wide washer, to similar visual effect. Nice to see somebody else can to the same conclusions.

Now I'm not entirely convinced (i still think 'artistic convention' is at work here) but if it did this has to be the most plausible reconstruction.

Well done that chap.
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Post by Nigel »

Ariarnia wrote:My main question is still 'why would you allow silk but not cotton?'
because we have extant sources that proves it was in use. It basically comes down to correct use of evidence in context which given you claim to be a history student I think I am flabergasted that you do not understand.
There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

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Post by Nigel »

Merlon. wrote:Evening, Nigel depends on what you mean about a usage context.
Do you want one for the cotton staple, cotton element in cloth or cotton cloth as we would regard it today.
This entire thread seems to suffer from the reenactor ailment of taking words out of context.
The Mazzaoui text "The Cotton Industry of Northern Italy in the Late Middle Ages: 1150-1450" contains a lot of the answers. Even though it was savaged in the academic press when published
At the beginning of the 13th century Northern Italy was a massive producer of cotton cloth and continued to be so until the cotton cloth production took off in the southern Germany area in the mid 14th century.
Brother Ranulf the majority of any cotton imports into England took the form of finished cloth and not yarn. Cotton cloth production did not take off in England until the time of the new draperies in the 16th century and later.
So yes cotton cloth is available and you can use it if you are rich enough and of sufficient status. The next point is what form does this cotton cloth take?
one word answer is Fustian. The linen threds are needed because the loom technology needs their strength to make vaiable cloth can be made in several forms the most luxurious with a nap effectively a cotton velvet. (which again is why these things have to be kept under tight control, imagine some renactors with cotton velvet aaaaaargh) That is the usually used for the table cloths because of the plush finish.
This begins to explain why you get wool cottons, eventually they started to make make friezes which is a napped wool cloth which emulates the nap of the "cotton" so they became known as cottons in their own right.
Then from about 1690 onwards you start to get cotton cloth as most people understand it today warp and weft of cotton light airy cloth, because of improvments in loom technology. But totally un-medieval.

It is just as much about banning the incorrect forms of cotton as about banning cotton outright.

You can have a cotton underdress, just needs to be made out of fustian
Paul thanks BUT we still haven't hit the 1200 in England
There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

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Post by Nigel »

Ariarnia wrote:
Sophia wrote:
Sophia wrote: Finally, I am now of the firm opinion that unless you can support the full panoply which is frankly impossible as a student unless you have a private income, you shoul stick to the lower classes and do it well. Over the last few years we have spent about twice my yearly income as a student and the more I learn the more I can pick holes in what we have in the way of clothes and equipment.
I am a student, yes, but I have also worked independently and I actually find that as a student I have much more disposable income. I do not have to pay taxes, I am in very cheap accommodation with the bills included, I am tee total and fairly recluse and so I have a min 3000 a year to spend on shinnies, and that’s just me.

I have an independent income on top of this as I also work as an admin earning about £15 per hour or get 10% commission on grant applications/admin/accountancy for a local community group.


[I am not a fighter, but once my partner was kitted up there is little to buy him. I am actually resorting to a new helm and a Paul Binn custom order for his birthday as he has all else he needs.

I do not say any of this to be smug, but if I wear cotton it is not because it is cheaper or easier.

Ok the full panolpy means not just your clothing BUT verything else tent support staff kitchen retinue etc etc

I can do it and its taken me 10 years and I don't claim to be more than a lowly knight

So Can you ? from what I can see I don't think you can
There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

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Post by Medicus Matt »

Ariarnia wrote:My main question is still 'why would you allow silk but not cotton?'
Because we can prove from textual and archaeological evidence that the material that we call silk today was being imported and used in Britain in the period being portrayed.

Due to the controversial nature and varied meanings of the word 'cotton' in the textual evidence, combined with a lack of archaeological evidence, the same cannot be said for that material.

Given that the main argument for the use of any expensive, imported item is that it is a visually demonstrative indication of wealth and status and that, unlike silk, cotton doesn't seem to satisfy that criterion, it seems safer (in terms of what we present to the public) to avoid what is doubtful (ie cotton) and stick to wool and linen.

Should some non-contentious evidence (ie a text saying "and a cnight shall be dressed in an shirt made from cotun, as made from thee plante of the samne name from India) or a piece of it datable to the period in question come to light, then everyone will go "Woo-hoo...new evidence", take it on board and trample the cloth merchants to death in a rush to buy the right kind of cotton for their high status nightshirts. Until then, they'll stick to what they know.

Now, all this aside, within the context of your own group, if you think you can make a strong (not absolute, mind) case for it's usage and present your evidence to the public when asked, that's fair enough. A lot of what we all do is of the "we think/I think/there's evidence to suggest" variety, rather than the "yes, of course they definately used it/did it/made it this way".

'Course, those of us doing Late Roman/early migration use cotton from Egypt all the time..but then we're a damned sight more civilised than you later medieval mud-eaters. 8)
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Post by gregory23b »

Trust matt to tunr up and spoil the fun with a succinct summary.

Damn medics.
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Post by Medicus Matt »

gregory23b wrote:Trust matt to tunr up and spoil the fun with a succinct summary.

Damn medics.
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Post by Nigel »

thats cos you is doing FRIDAYS
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Post by gregory23b »

He must be actually working!!
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Post by Ariarnia »

Ok the full panolpy means not just your clothing BUT verything else tent support staff kitchen retinue etc etc

I can do it and its taken me 10 years and I don't claim to be more than a lowly knight

So Can you ? from what I can see I don't think you can
Frankly sir, from what you've seen you couldn't see a horses *rse. [/irritation]

I am getting a little fed up of this being so off topic.

I am working on buying an authenti tent as we speak and the group owns 2.

As far as living history is concerned we do have a bit of a rough and ready approach, but our first 2 day show is coming up and we are prepared for it.

As for panoply, we have members that practice authenti trades (woodwork, maille making, sewing, etc) and whose kit takes up most of the space.

We have a camp system of cooking which is reasonable if a little chaotic (we are only generally allowed one fire and tend to be feeding 60+ people so most of it comes cold) and we have enthusiasm and drive.

We do have a living history hierarchy with two ladies of not quite equal class, 4 ladies attendants, many peasants of various ranks/skills as above.

I am not surprised or sorry if you find us less than perfect, we are a group that have been doing this for a very short time and have grown enormously in that time.

We do not have conquests advantage of splintering with experienced members from a larger established group.

We are primarily people that joined up while at uni to do it in our free time. Most of us don't have a historical background.

A few of the officers were in the vike or regia until they came to uni or regia left Wales. I’ve been trying to avoid this as it is completely irrelevant to the topic.

The lamellar was introduced as we have a black girl who joined and wanted to fight. She wanted ethnicity and no one was really going to believe she was a Saxon anyway. For the sake of historical authenticity I assume we should have painted her white, but leather armour was the only real alternative to the mail she should have been wearing as a professional soldier. The gentleman wearing it is the head of the northwest groups, he also has maille. He wore lamella as a change as his kit and he passes as Rus. The only objection I have to it is I can’t stand vegtan. Hideous. I don’t like yellow in general.

The kit in that picture was put together very quickly and the local levy were put together by only one officer who worked his socks of and got it finished at the last minute as Dan was in Wales at the time sorting the newer groups. You have been told that ‘yes, it was a bad looking show’ you’ve been told ‘it’s not really representative’ drop it.

I've seen some conquest pictures that make me wince, if not on that scale. I do not judge you based on those pictures as a whole group and this thread was started to ask a question, not to be treated in a condescending manner.[/irritation off for real]

*sigh*

Now, anyone have anything left to say about cotton?

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Post by gregory23b »

What answers do you want?

seems to be a number of questions.

1 - Verified use of it over the medieval periods - as opposed to cotton that describes a type of wool or a finish on wool.

2 - What use it was put to and when

3 - how that tallies with why there is a general reluctance to use in reenactment up to the 17thc or thereabouts.

The first two is up for a lot more discussion and interpretation, the last is more about erring on the side of caution due to the first two than much else.

Prevailing attitudes and kit do change over time, not just in terms of kit quality but what kit. Each group has their own agenda and compromise to deal with as well, sometimes they do not always sit alongside others.
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Post by Merlon. »

Well, as previously said you can't have cotton, you might get away with fustian. It is unlikely that material from a remnant shop such as Abakhans will accurately represent such fabric.

Possibly you should show a picture of the cloth that you believe accurately 13th century textile containing cotton yarn. It can't be "cotton", discussion about cotton is too vague you need to talk about particular types of fabric not the yarn from which a textile is made.

You have posted on a renactment forum, the vast majority of the forum posters are strong in will and opinion. Much the same as you would find, if as a history student you set out to attempt a contentious point in your thesis. You must learn to live with the flak.

There people on here including to a degree myself who can go on about Z & S twist yarns, thread counts per inch,weights per square foot, drape and finish of textiles. Those are the aspects you should looking at, not the supposed use of a given yarn material.

Size and speed of growth of a group is not adequate excuse for slippages in kit standards and indeed food provision. That indicates that the group concerned needs to get to grip with its rate of growth and control it, otherwise it will spiral out of control. That is not a dig at your group, rather 26 years bitter experience across a number of societies. Criticism should not be taken personally otherwise most reenactors would be gibbering wrecks. Accept and learn from it
Last edited by Merlon. on Fri Feb 08, 2008 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Nigel »

WELL HERE WE GO CAPS ON FOR CLARITY NOT SHOUTING


Frankly sir, from what you've seen you couldn't see a horses *rse. [/irritation]

REALLY I THINK I CAN SEE A LOT I SPENT OVER AN HOUR TRYING TO FIND SOMETHING GOOD ABOUT THESE PICS AND SOME U TUBE CLIPS AND FAILED DISMALLY

I am getting a little fed up of this being so off topic.

GET USED TO IT IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME ITS CALLED FREE SPEECH

I am working on buying an authenti tent as we speak and the group owns 2.

ER WOULD THOSE BE THE COMPLETLEY INAUTHENTIC BELL TENTS IN THE PICTURE

As far as living history is concerned we do have a bit of a rough and ready approach, but our first 2 day show is coming up and we are prepared for it.

REALLY

As for panoply, we have members that practice authenti trades (woodwork, maille making, sewing, etc) and whose kit takes up most of the space.

REALLY

We have a camp system of cooking which is reasonable if a little chaotic (we are only generally allowed one fire and tend to be feeding 60+ people so most of it comes cold) and we have enthusiasm and drive.

WHICH IS GOOD BUT IT LOOKS LIKE ITS COMPLETLEY MISDIRECTED OR FAILING THAT YOU SHOULD SACK YOUR AUTHENTICTY OFFICER

We do have a living history hierarchy with two ladies of not quite equal class, 4 ladies attendants, many peasants of various ranks/skills as above.

WOW, IAM IMPRESSED NOT. LETS BE HONEST FROM THE PICTURES I HAVE SEEN I THINK YOU HAVE FUNDAMENTAL FLAWS IN PRESENTATION AUTHENTICITY AND SAFETY BUT THAT JUST ME AND I WOULD SUGGEST THAT RATHER THAN WORYING ABOUT TITLES YOU COULD SPEND MORE TIME GETTING THE BASICS OF SAFETY AND PRESENTATION CORRECT

I am not surprised or sorry if you find us less than perfect, we are a group that have been doing this for a very short time and have grown enormously in that time.

WELL 5 YEARS IS QUITE A LONG TIME IF YOU ASK ME BUT THAT’S JUST ME

We do not have conquests advantage of splintering with experienced members from a larger established group.

ER THERE WERE 4 (AND WE CAME FROM A NUMBER OF BACKGROUNDS FIND THE MILITARY ILLUSTRATED ARTICLE ON US WHICH EXPLAINS IT) OF US NOW THERE ARE 80 SOME OF WHOM CAME FROM OTHER GROUPS SOME OF WHOM CHANCED UPON US BUT WE CAN PULL IN LOTS MORE FRIENDS BECAUSE WE ARE LOVELY PEOPLE

We are primarily people that joined up while at uni to do it in our free time.

YES AND MSOT OF CONQUEST HOLD DOWN QUITE DEMANDING JOBS SO WHATS THE RELEVANCE OF THIS ?

Most of us don't have a historical background.

THAT’S NOT WHAT YOU SAID BEFORE YOU CLAIMED THAT A LOT OF YOU WERE HISTORY STUDENTS

A few of the officers were in the vike or regia until they came to uni or regia left Wales.

SO THEY BURNT THE GUIDES OR USED THEM FOR BEDDING ?

I’ve been trying to avoid this as it is completely irrelevant to the topic.

TOPICS MEANDER

The lamellar was introduced as we have a black girl who joined and wanted to fight. She wanted ethnicity and no one was really going to believe she was a Saxon anyway.

SORRY THAT IS UTTER CRAP AND PANDERING AT ITS WORST

For the sake of historical authenticity I assume we should have painted her white,

NO LEFT HER AS SHE WAS AND PUT HER INTO CORRECT KIT RATHER THAN PRESENTING A FALSE IMPRESSION OF SOMETHING WHICH DID NOT EXIST

but leather armour was the only real alternative to the mail she should have been wearing as a professional soldier.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS LEATHER ARMOUR AS Dr Timothy POINTED OUT


The gentleman wearing it is the head of the northwest groups, he also has maille. He wore lamella as a change as his kit and he passes as Rus.

OH I HAVE TO SEND A PIC OF THIS TO SILVER WOLF


The only objection I have to it is I can’t stand vegtan. Hideous. I don’t like yellow in general.


SO THE FACT THAT IT NEVER EXISTED IS OK THEN

The kit in that picture was put together very quickly and the local levy were put together by only one officer who worked his socks of and got it finished at the last minute as Dan was in Wales at the time sorting the newer groups. You have been told that ‘yes, it was a bad looking show’ you’ve been told ‘it’s not really representative’ drop it.

WHY

I've seen some conquest pictures that make me wince, if not on that scale.

REALLY AND GIVEN YOUR GREAT KNOWLEDGE WHY SHOULD I BELIEVE THIS ? I DON’T DOUBT THERE ARE SOME VERY STRANGE PICS OF THE GROUP AROUND GIVEN WE HAVE BEEN AROUND FOR 15 YEARS

I do not judge you based on those pictures as a whole group and this thread was started to ask a question, not to be treated in a condescending manner.[/irritation off for real]

WHAT CONDESCENDING THE FACT WE CHALLENGED YOU ITS CALLED DEBATE YOU WERE ASKED TO PROVIDE EVIDENCE YOU FAIELD TO DO SO

THAT SAID I WISH YOU WELL AS ALL THE MAIN STREAM GROUPS ARE NOW VERY MUCH AWARE OF YOU AT LEAST THIS THREAD ENSURED THAT
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Post by zauberdachs »

gregory23b wrote:3 - how that tallies with why there is a general reluctance to use in reenactment up to the 17thc or thereabouts.
If it's off topic perhaps everyone could ignore number three from now on or open a separate thread?
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Merlon.
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Post by Merlon. »

Nigel you wanted an earlier reference
Finally looked in the OED for fustain
fustian
1. Formerly, a kind of coarse cloth made of cotton and flax. Now, a thick, twilled, cotton cloth with a short pile or nap, usually dyed of an olive, leaden, or other dark colour.

c1200 Trin. Coll. Hom. 163 e meshakele of medeme fustane [or perh. fustani]. c1386 CHAUCER Prol. 75 Of fustyan he wered a gepoun. c1450 Merlin 279 His clothinge was blakke fustyan with bendes on the sleues. 1502 Privy Purse Exp. Eliz. of York (1830) 16, ij yerdes of white fustyan for sokkes for the Quene.

I presume Trin Coll refers to Trinity College Cambridge, so that gives some tenance to cotton based textiles in England in the 13th century

Nigel
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Post by Nigel »

Thanks Paul

skimmin along the edge

Bet its a table cloth
There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

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Post by Ariarnia »

I'm not going to argue with you.

It's counter productive and irritiates me.

If you want to come to one of our shows and give your opinion then, feel free.

I am actually interested in what you would say as I do think you know more than we do.

I never said otherwise.

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Post by Nigel »

Well you have my opinion

which is basically stop looka t yoursleves change somethings not everything a lot but not everthing and then move on simple really
There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

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Dave B
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Post by Dave B »

Wow.

That thread has left me so traumatised at the very thought of cotton that I'm going to have to get linen boxer shorts and jeans to wear to work :lol:

They better hope I can source some by monday.
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Sir Fletcher Phelps
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Post by Sir Fletcher Phelps »

Dave B wrote:
They better hope I can source some by monday.
Why? Is the alternative Spandex? :twisted:
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Dave B
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Post by Dave B »

You'd love that wouldn't you, you Minx.
Find time in every day to look at your life and say; 'Well, it could be worse'

Kurt's uncle Bob.

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