Boots etc.

Making, Pictures, Queries, Resources

Moderator: Moderators

Laffin Jon Terris
Posts: 199
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:32 am
Contact:

Post by Laffin Jon Terris »

BrendanGrif wrote:the stepping through time book defines "boots" (or type 95s as they like to call them) as an item of footware "an item of high footwear without a closure" i.e. no laces, buckles etc as a means of fastening, though they are ok for tightening (except for the specific exception already mentioned).

Brendan
I could have sworn that Olaf Goubitz' classification was that up to mid calf (or just below) was a shoe and anything over that was a boot, thus making most of the finds (just over ankle length) "shoes" where we would normally call and think of them as boots.

Thinking about it this does still fit with the above description re fastenings and combined could help to explain the incredibly (to my mind) high 1:3000 ratio.

Jon.
Knowing is only half the battle.
Image

Marcus Woodhouse
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 3337
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2006 8:35 pm

Post by Marcus Woodhouse »

Guthrie is right to point out that Italian pictures mean nothing much as the italians (God bless'em) did ignore much of the fashions of the rest of Eurpoe during the 15th century 9 except for savoy which did follow-sort of burgundian and imperial fashions, sometimes mixing them together with a bit of italian flair for an extra twist. I'd love to get some soled hose by the way. though i feel they would last about two minutes.
OSTENDE MIHI PECUNIAM!

guthrie
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2349
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:54 pm
Location: Polmont-Edinburgh

Post by guthrie »

Marcus Woodhouse wrote: I'd love to get some soled hose by the way. though i feel they would last about two minutes.
I think they'd be great for indoors or climates where it doesn't rain for several months at a time. However in Britain, you'd have wet feet within minutes.
As long as you used good leather and wool and stitched them together properly, I think they would last quite a long time.

Laffin Jon Terris
Posts: 199
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:32 am
Contact:

Post by Laffin Jon Terris »

zauberdachs wrote:The 1:3000 sounds right after trawling through all my books on costume. I have found one image that dates to the late thirteenth century which has two Shepard's in boots that rise to the mid thigh. You can see them in: "Medieval costume in England and France 13th, 14th and 15th centuries" Mary G Houston 0486190603 page 51

The vast majority of images on horse back or not, rich or poor show shoes that end just below the ankle, however the earlier you go there are more shoes that rise to just above the ankle.

Interestingly all those on horse back wear normal shoes. Those not on horse back can be identified from the spurs on their normal shoes.

I think the idea that the super rich wore large boots cannot be borne out by the evidence from contemporary images. The super rich predominate in their very best finery and none wear anything other than ankle boots...
Check out Rene d'Anjou and his tournament illustrations, lots of thigh high boots there (and not always on men on horses either).

Here are a few examples:

http://s112.photobucket.com/albums/n183 ... ury%20art/

I know there are many, many more examples of folk wearing ordinary shoes etc. but you cannot claim there are no examples at all of higher legged footwear!

Jon.
Knowing is only half the battle.
Image

User avatar
zauberdachs
Post Centurion
Posts: 695
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:38 pm

Post by zauberdachs »

Excellent, proper evidence :) Thanks Laffin Jon Terris. Having finally seen some evidence for them I will no longer claim such a thing ;)

Out of interest what is the dating, it looks like later 15th century to my eye, is that correct?
Do not be loath, diligent reader, to winnow my chaff, and lay up the wheat in the storehouse of your memory. For truth regards not who is the speaker, nor in what manner it is spoken, but that the thing be true - Nennius, 8th century

User avatar
Alan E
Posts: 327
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 10:18 am
Location: Somewhere in Southern Wales now (unless elsewhere)

Post by Alan E »

guthrie wrote:
Marcus Woodhouse wrote: I'd love to get some soled hose by the way. though i feel they would last about two minutes.
I think they'd be great for indoors or climates where it doesn't rain for several months at a time. However in Britain, you'd have wet feet within minutes.
As long as you used good leather and wool and stitched them together properly, I think they would last quite a long time.
They last - been there (as long as they're properly sewn) - work well in grass as well as on wood floors, giving extra grip that you don't get with leather-soled shoes (or boots) - because of the flexibility. Obviously they're not for wear in mud, but even on damp grass they are comfortable all day (as long as you are used to bare feet). Oh, and they occasionally have to be re-sewn if the stitching bursts (no big deal - all clothes need mending occasionally :P ).
'till whispers fill the tower of memory...
The Exiles Company of Medieval Martial Artists: http://the-exiles.org.uk/

Now teaching Fiore's art in Ceredigion (Felinfach) - pm for details

Laffin Jon Terris
Posts: 199
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:32 am
Contact:

Post by Laffin Jon Terris »

zauberdachs wrote:Excellent, proper evidence :) Thanks Laffin Jon Terris. Having finally seen some evidence for them I will no longer claim such a thing ;)

Out of interest what is the dating, it looks like later 15th century to my eye, is that correct?
Most of those images came from René of Anjou's Traictié de la forme et devis d'ung tournoy. Rene d' Anjou lived from 1409 to 1480 (and apparently fought alongside Joan of Arc!)

The woodcut of the squire is attributed to William Caxton's print of the Canterbury Tales, Caxton dates between 1422 and 1492.

The siege of Montagne I'm afraid I can't identify, the siege itself was in the late 1300s but that illustration is later (not sure how much by!)

Jon.
Knowing is only half the battle.
Image

Marcus Woodhouse
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 3337
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2006 8:35 pm

Post by Marcus Woodhouse »

One of the 1472 Ordaniannces of Charles the B***cks (i forget which town it was written in-by God he made so many!) states that among needing a horse costing no less than four Franc and jacks with fashoinable puffed sleeves being a no-no, his mounted archers had to wear knee length boots with rounded toes and corded soles.
OSTENDE MIHI PECUNIAM!

User avatar
zauberdachs
Post Centurion
Posts: 695
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:38 pm

Post by zauberdachs »

So far this all seems to be be mid to late 15th century. Is there anything earlier?
Do not be loath, diligent reader, to winnow my chaff, and lay up the wheat in the storehouse of your memory. For truth regards not who is the speaker, nor in what manner it is spoken, but that the thing be true - Nennius, 8th century

User avatar
Colin Middleton
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2037
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:31 pm
Location: Sheffield
Contact:

Post by Colin Middleton »

I think you need to look at how you are wearing your hoes if you're destroying them that quickly. Apparently such hoes were often worn with leather pattens (see MoL: Shoes and Pattens). That should help them not wear out so quickly.

It makes sense for the very rich to wear low shoes. It shows that they don't need to be protected from mud and such and shows off their wonderfully fitted hoes.
Colin

"May 'Blood, blood, blood' be your motto!"

Image

User avatar
Cecily
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:24 pm
Location: Surrey

Post by Cecily »

I'm liking the way this discussion is going; from knee or thigh boots to ankle boots or shoes! Being Zachos's mum; who initially offered to pay for said footwear (should the young squire ever hone his riding skills enough to start jousting). It would be less expensive & might discourage daliance with deviants......etc!?!

Laffin Jon Terris
Posts: 199
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:32 am
Contact:

Post by Laffin Jon Terris »

Sorry to revive a dying thread but I have a few new images for you!

This time I've been looking for shorter boots:

Image

This is the French forces re-taking Orleans (from the vigiles du roi charles VII- 1484) Right in front of the picture, the guy with the spear.

Image
This is the famous Battle of Crecy by Froissart.Note the archer on the extreme right of the picture.

Image

This one is "Three Marys visiting the tomb" by Van Eyck (died 1426) I can't say for sure if these are boots or secondary hose, the guy leaning against the tomb looks like hose, but the guy lying down at the front definitely looks like he's wearing boots.

Lastly this one:

Image

Slightly different, this is the Ottoman Sultan Bayezid, surveying the field after massacring the Christians at the Battle of Nicopol. Several of his men have boots just up to the knee.

As before, there are many, many more images that show shoes being worn but that doesn't mean that no-one ever wore boots- or that all boots were made to one style!

Jon.
Knowing is only half the battle.
Image

Post Reply