Chivalry and Betrayal - The Hundred Years War (BBC 4)

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Phoenix Rising
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Chivalry and Betrayal - The Hundred Years War (BBC 4)

Postby Phoenix Rising » Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:13 pm

Caught up with this series (being aired on BBC4) on the BBC i Player - seemed to be a good, solid run through of the events both leading to and within the Hundred Years War. Not overly informational and 'expert heavy' in utilising one viewpoint, but rather the presenter takes the views of several historians and blends them into the programme, bringing both the events themselves and some of the more understated parts of the conflict to life. Recognised one of them from the excellent Mike Loades 'Weapons that made Britain' as he was talking about the Battle of Crecy, and have to admit that I didn't know about the origins of the motto 'Ich Dien' or the emblem it embellishes.

Seems to me to be a good programme for ordinary folk who want to know a bit more, but not the minutae, about the subject.



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Re: Chivalry and Betrayal - The Hundred Years War (BBC 4)

Postby Simon Atford » Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:12 pm

It is a good programme.

I have to declare a sort of interest in that the CoC did do some filming for it but it got cut for not being "educational" enough.

Hey ho...



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Re: Chivalry and Betrayal - The Hundred Years War (BBC 4)

Postby Brother Kevfael » Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:27 pm

Episode 1: I don't remember any mention of Sluys
Episode 2: her account of bradmore removing the arrow was farcical and inaccurate.

Re-enactors getting things wrong: Annoying, but often understandable as they may not have the resources; History Academics: unforgivable: if they were putting the same information in a peer reviewed journal they would ensure that the facts were correct - but because it's a documentary for the public....



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Re: Chivalry and Betrayal - The Hundred Years War (BBC 4)

Postby Phoenix Rising » Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:47 pm

'Finally, John Bradmore, a London surgeon, was called upon. He gradually enlarged the wound with small probes, enough to allow the arrow to be drawn out. Then with a specially made pair of tongs and a small screw running through the tongs and into the socket of the arrow, he wiggled and pulled the arrow head out. One must remember that this was before the days of pain relief and anesthesia. The pain endured by Prince Henry must have been terrible. The wound was cleaned out with white wine, and wads of flax soaked in bread sops, barley honey and turpentine oil'

The above quote (found in several places on the net) seems to indicate that what she was saying was more or less correct, minus the more technical points - okay, so Bradmore made a special set of tongs to do this, but would this really lend anything to the programme? Surely the idea of such documentaries is to not just inform, but to also act as a springboard to the enquiring mind to research more of the details of the subject. If someone is that interested then this is surely what they will do.

As I said, a good programme for general information, not the minutae...



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Re: Chivalry and Betrayal - The Hundred Years War (BBC 4)

Postby Simon Atford » Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:40 pm

Brother Kevfael wrote:Episode 1: I don't remember any mention of Sluys


I thought that was a bit odd. She mentioned French attacks on English coastal towns and villages in Episode 2.



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Re: Chivalry and Betrayal - The Hundred Years War (BBC 4)

Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:50 pm

I like the fact that she wears the same jacket and blouse regardless clearly aiming for an authentic medieval army on campaign smell.


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Re: Chivalry and Betrayal - The Hundred Years War (BBC 4)

Postby Brother Kevfael » Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:39 pm

The best source for Bradmore and the removal of the arrowhead is from Dr. T. Lang's and Mr. Hector Cole's excellent article "The Treating of Prince Henry's Arrow Wound, 1403" in Jnl of the Society of Archer Antiquaries, 2003, pp. 95-101.

Not quotes from the internet.

An article available to a History Academic.

- Dr. Ramirez stated that Henry was struck on the right hand side of his face. Based on the fact that the portrait of Henry V by an unknown artist didn't have a scar, (solid evidence there!), Bradmore states the left side of his face beside his nose (or are we to infer that Bradmore could not tell left from right?)
- She also states that the instrument went beneath the arrow. Which it did not.

God is in the details. People watching a program for general information are entitled to accurracy.

Enough said



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Re: Chivalry and Betrayal - The Hundred Years War (BBC 4)

Postby Phoenix Rising » Sun Feb 24, 2013 3:08 pm

Henry V struck by arrow in side of face - arrow went in 6 inches and was removed, scar notwithstanding (and as most monarchs had more than a streak of vanity in them this may well have not been included in any portrait, left or right, regardless)

Henry then survives and went on to beat the French at Agincourt.(Huzzah!)

How much more do you, as a ordinary person, need to know?

Accuracy is one thing, detailing things to their death is another...

Enough said.



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Re: Chivalry and Betrayal - The Hundred Years War (BBC 4)

Postby Simon Atford » Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:42 am

Phoenix Rising wrote:Henry V struck by arrow in side of face - arrow went in 6 inches and was removed, scar notwithstanding (and as most monarchs had more than a streak of vanity in them this may well have not been included in any portrait, left or right, regardless)

Henry then survives and went on to beat the French at Agincourt.(Huzzah!)

How much more do you, as a ordinary person, need to know?

Accuracy is one thing, detailing things to their death is another...

Enough said.


Quite agree. If it had been programme specifically about Henry V or medieval surgery then maybe more detail would have been warranted. But a three episode documentary series covering the whole of the HYW is hardly the place.



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Re: Chivalry and Betrayal - The Hundred Years War (BBC 4)

Postby Sasha » Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:28 am

Still to watch the last episode but I've enjoyed the first two and it being outside my main directions of interest has been refreshing. My knowledge of the HYW is gleaned entirely from Shakespeare, some dodgy 1970s school history, coming across mention of the French Ordonnance(sp?) armies of the late period and very hazy memories of Les Rois Maudits which BBC2 showed in my early teenage years and my parents let me watch because I was studying French at school and it was 'educational'. :wink: I do recall it was more about the origins of the war rather than the war itself.

The portrait evidence on Henry's wound? Meh, I thought it was a bit of a large assumption but it's still 50-50 and, really, doesn't affect my understanding of the event. It's just a bit of colour for those who like their history to be about the personal. Also, while I appreciate that the programme set out its stall right away as being about the impact of the war on the sense of English nationhood, I'd like to hear more about the French view (or, indeed, the wider continental one - what about Flanders? Or Burgundy? 'France' had more enemies to worry about than just the English). There can be no way that French society was static throughout this period and under the stresses of all that fighting. So, can anyone recommend a book that covers that? In English because my French never progressed beyond the schoolboy stage. :)


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Re: Chivalry and Betrayal - The Hundred Years War (BBC 4)

Postby Alan E » Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:14 pm

Sasha, Jonathan Sumption's HYW series covers that amongst other things. Pretty long and heavy reading, but does spend much of his time examining what it meant to the regions where the war was largely fought and the 'English' (allies) who became 'French' by the end.

IMO it helps to remember that a Gascon or Breton etc was no more 'French' than a Scot or a Welshman is English. Briefly, the habit of appealing to (and thus recognising the rule of) the Parliament in Paris helped the formation of a centralised state whose heart was at the capital of France.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_ ... ooks%2C521


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Re: Chivalry and Betrayal - The Hundred Years War (BBC 4)

Postby Sasha » Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:11 pm

Thanks for that. Time to check the library catalogue!


"We know what the world thinks of us...but, every now and then, when trouble comes knocking at the door, we're good people to know." Spies of Warsaw by Alan Furst

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Re: Chivalry and Betrayal - The Hundred Years War (BBC 4)

Postby Sasha » Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:35 pm

Not a history but Harper Collins are about to bring out Maurioce Druon's Accursed Kings series in English...

http://www.harpercollins.co.uk/Authors/ ... rice-druon


"We know what the world thinks of us...but, every now and then, when trouble comes knocking at the door, we're good people to know." Spies of Warsaw by Alan Furst


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