Cat among the pigeons..

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IDEEDEE
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Cat among the pigeons..

Post by IDEEDEE »

For those who like reading folk that stir things up (and I do...).

Try "Bloodline: Celtic Kings of Roman Britain" by archaeologist Miles Russell (Amberly Publishing) - as seen on tv' Time Team etc. Following on from his hackle-raising "Roman Sussex", Russell challenges the (admittedly somewhat shakey) "Established Facts" of the Roman Invasion - especially where they have been undermined by "unfortunate or inconvenient" archaelogical discoveries (like a pre-invasion Roman military presence) and postulates an invasion plan, client kingdom and continuity of a powerful British dynasty that is at odds with the "official" version of Roman and pre-Roman Britain.... In-your-face, entertaining and thought provoking (and amusing when imagining the response of less imaginative scholars...) and does a good job in reminding us that our sources for (and received wisdom re.) this period are soooooo shakey....

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Brother Ranulf
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Re: Cat among the pigeons..

Post by Brother Ranulf »

I was at school when Pontius had not yet passed his Pilate's licence ( :wasntme: ) and I remember being told about Roman client kingdoms pre-conquest, a thriving and lucrative trade between Roman Gaul and Britain and even military advisers to protect Roman interests here - so nothing new as far as I'm concerned. I guess the curriculum (and the content) has changed considerably since those far-off halcyon days . . .
Brother Ranulf

"Patres nostri et nos hanc insulam in brevi edomuimus in brevi nostris subdidimus legibus, nostris obsequiis mancipavimus" - Walter Espec 1138

Lady Cecily
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Re: Cat among the pigeons..

Post by Lady Cecily »

Err.... what's the official version then? I've only ever heard the archaeological version.
Caroline

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IDEEDEE
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Re: Cat among the pigeons..

Post by IDEEDEE »

Yeh Ranulf, you're right. It's more the nature, extent of (& personalities involved in) the client states that he is questioning - that & the fact that the historio-archeological "establishment" (dread word) don't seem to even like the raising of questions re. (apparent) archaeological anomilies that could, if seen in certain light, undermine the "established facts".

I'm not sure I agree with Russel's conclusions, but I do like someone who raises queries - and reminds us that what many of us think of as as "facts" (e.g. the make-up of the AD 43 invasion force, the locations involved in the invasion and the lead-up to it, the "Batavians" at the "Battle of the Medway, which side Togidubnus was on - and what happened to him) are often no more than modern "calculated guesses" - and are not stated in period sources or, necessarily, supported by the archaeology.

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Brother Ranulf
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Re: Cat among the pigeons..

Post by Brother Ranulf »

On my shelves is a copy of a book called "Invasion; The Roman Conquest of Britain" by John Peddie (St Martin's Press 1987) in which he explores the politics of southern Britain before and during the invasion. He then goes into huge detail about the shipping capacity needed for the invasion force of 43 AD, its supplies and animals and the complex logistics required to get the army across the channel and established in this country.

The problem is that he fills in all the gaps in our knowledge of these logistics with lashings of conjecture and comparisons with the US cavalry of the 19th century, the British Army of the second world war and (for example) the British Soldier's Field Service Pocket Book of 1869. As you say, this kind of theorising opens up debate and arouses interest, but I wonder how close to historical accuracy it really is and how much of it is simply to get a book published . . . .
Brother Ranulf

"Patres nostri et nos hanc insulam in brevi edomuimus in brevi nostris subdidimus legibus, nostris obsequiis mancipavimus" - Walter Espec 1138

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IDEEDEE
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Re: Cat among the pigeons..

Post by IDEEDEE »

I tend to agree - and the cycnical part of my little mind tends to look for the "is this just to get published/get publicity" aspect. Don't think that's the case in Russell's case, as some of his comments/theories have raised hackles among the establishment..

Apropose your earlier comment about having been taught about some elements of Russell's book before: don't ya just hate these tv "secret history" style documentaries with their "newly uncovered evidence" that are so often actually just rehashing stuff the likes of us (& others with a genuine interest in a subject) read up on some twenty/thirty years ago...

Dan of Britannia
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Re: Cat among the pigeons..

Post by Dan of Britannia »

Absolute genocide is very rare in history, populations are subject to massacre & displacement certainly.

The people that work the land pretty much stay the same, in the worse cases the warrior, administrative,political and sometimes religious elite get kicked out/killed & are replaced by another administrative,political and sometimes religious elite!

All that happens is the people of this country after a successful invasion -just ended up paying their taxes to a different set of ba5tards!


Bit like an election... :roll:
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Conare nullius momenti videri fortasse missilibus careant.
(Try to look unimportant, they may be low on ammo).

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