REMINDER - NMTF Historic Traders Branch AGM

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His Grace, Duke Henry
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REMINDER - NMTF Historic Traders Branch AGM

Postby His Grace, Duke Henry » Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:19 am

[TOP EDIT] Meeting to be held Sat 11th at 6:30 ish

This is a gentle reminder that the Historic Traders Branch AGM is to be held on the Saturday 11th of July at Tewkesbury, on the site of the Battle of Tewkesbury event. It will be held after trading stops about 6.30ish or so, precisely. The exact location of the meeting is yet to be arranged but if we do not have use of a tent, we will convene as usual in the "living space of a member trader, which is not a market stall in the least bit, honest" in order to conform to NMTF rules. Members of the NMTF Historic Traders Branch are welcome to attend, although you should be carrying a current membership card in order to vote at this meeting.

It appears once more that the NMTF HQ is using a time machine to ensure that notices about are AGM are delivered to you, the members, on time. Remember this when the letter arrives on your doorstep that it is in fact in a co-existent temporally displaced "bubble" of a time about 3 weeks in the past, thus momentarily causing you to be back at the correct time of notification, when the bubble "collapses" outwards as the envelope is opened.

The sole purpose of our AGM at the moment appears to be to elect a new Chairman who will serve will the same poise and eloquence as our departing Chairman who has served with poise and eloquence for such a long time. The Secretary and Treasurer (I believe) are happy to remain standing as long as you all so wish, or until we have had one too many and fall over. The sole proposal on the table at the moment is a vote of thanks to our very own Pete the Pong from his years of service to the Branch.

Nominations for the post of Chairman will be accepted at the AGM - as not all of you have Time Machines, to submit nominations in advance of the meeting.

Mucho Gratis.

Duke Henry Plantagenet, (Branch Sec.)


(If there are no nominations for the post of Chairman, the Secretary will bomb the Presidential Palace, take over the Chamber of Deputies, the Radio Station, the Railway and declare Junta. Should you understand this reference, there is probably no hope for you, just get to an embassy quick)
Last edited by His Grace, Duke Henry on Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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Postby Lord High Everything Esle » Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:51 pm

Do give my apologies.

And I do not want to be elected Chairman in my absence.


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Postby His Grace, Duke Henry » Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:29 pm

Lord High Everything Esle wrote:And I do not want to be elected Chairman in my absence.


Curses.

[Tears up carefully faked "Acceptance in Absentia Letter"]

Foiled. Blast.



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Postby The Iron Dwarf » Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:49 pm

well it is no good me standing, coz when I stand people still think im sitting down :wink:


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Postby Miel » Thu Jul 02, 2009 1:34 pm

Please can you tender my apologies to the meeting.

I am recovering from an operation and will not be able to attend.

My best regards to all.

Miel.


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Postby Fillionous » Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:23 am

Unfortunetly due to a major malfunction with my time machine I have only just now see this notice of the AGM and due to it's continueing malfunction was /will not be able to attend.

On a side line this is a little frustrating as the normal NFMT magazine has almost nothing ever of relevance to our sort of line of trade... seeming more concerned with fixed market traders.

Ho hum...

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Postby Lord High Everything Esle » Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:21 pm

So who did we "elect" then?


Will/Dave, the Jolly Box Man and Barber Surgeon



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Postby Martin » Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:36 pm

On a side line this is a little frustrating as the normal NFMT magazine has almost nothing ever of relevance to our sort of line of trade
I agree, to the decree where I have my NMTF as a matter of course but aside from having a few handy discounts I think its more of a legality I have to have :lol: , though I could be wrong lol :)


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Postby Hinny Annie » Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:58 pm

Lord High Everything Esle wrote:So who did we "elect" then?


Roger (Lancaster Armouries)


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Re: REMINDER - NMTF Historic Traders Branch AGM

Postby Apothecary » Sun Jan 10, 2010 1:08 am

can I ask a stupid question ? - no that wasn't it........has anyone considered a postal vote for market traders as I feel that for those who don't trade at tewks like me, and then loosing the chance to vote

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Re: REMINDER - NMTF Historic Traders Branch AGM

Postby Martin » Sun Jan 10, 2010 11:20 am

good point, how many historic traders are there in the historic branch of the NMTF ? and how many of them attend Tewks , it seems to me that only medieval traders will be there but arent there traders in each historical period who dont
A.get a chance to vote
B. know the AGM is at Tewks ?
though Im quite happy having Rog at the Helm, just wondering thats all :D


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Re: REMINDER - NMTF Historic Traders Branch AGM

Postby Druid » Mon Mar 01, 2010 1:06 pm

I have just spoken to NMTF HQ and been informed that the national rules do not alow any postal or proxy votes for branch AGM's (or for the national AGM).
So anyone who justs wants a nice day out in the rain (sorry, I mean sunshine) may like to come for the day. Tewkesbury is centrally located. We usually get a poor turnout from traders who ARE on site (shame on you- you know who you are). So if anyone whants to vote any of us off and do the job(s) themselves we would love to see you.

Tewkesbury is probably the show with the most historical traders and as most will not even travel a few hundred meters to the AGM I cannot see many traveling a few hundred miles just for the AGM.

I will be attending the national AGM to represent the branch this year on 19/20 April. So if anyone has anything that they would like me to mention or find out please let me know. This is the first time that I, or anyone else has represented the Historic traders Branch so I not not know what to expect!

Paul Craddock (Druid)
Treasurer
http://www.re-enactment.com


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Re: REMINDER - NMTF Historic Traders Branch AGM

Postby Pete the Pong » Tue Mar 02, 2010 2:36 pm

One of the reasons for choosing Tewkesbury in the first place is that it is well established, "neutral" ground, and you can guarantee that there will be a lot of members on site (even if they don't turn up!!!). The NMTF rules say that the AGM must be held within a few weeks of the same date each year, and as yet no viable alternative venue has been available. In practise the only alternative would be the annual EH Festival of History, but although that covers other periods, I am under the impression that there are fewer members actually trading there.


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Re: REMINDER - NMTF Historic Traders Branch AGM

Postby Noctule » Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:52 pm

Druid wrote:Tewkesbury is probably the show with the most historical traders and as most will not even travel a few hundred meters to the AGM I cannot see many traveling a few hundred miles just for the AGM.


Perhaps the meeting could be held at a later time, or maybe even on Sunday morning.

There is always odd MOP or two loitering at half past six, and some of us then need time to close down the stall, get something to eat and put our feet up for a while. Let's face it we've all been at work since the early morning. Like us many traders also have families to attend to. Holding the meeting 30 minutes after the official closing time makes it impossible for us to attend.

Mat and Melanie


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Re: REMINDER - NMTF Historic Traders Branch AGM

Postby Jackie Phillips » Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:07 pm

Here, here.

Every year I mean to attend, and every year I get to the end of the busiest day's trading in the summer and need to sleep, eat, put feet in bucket of warm water, etc etc.

Last year it didn't help that I couldn't find my membership card - found it now it was in the scanner after copying it for pitch applications. oops.

Will try next time I promise.


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Re: REMINDER - NMTF Historic Traders Branch AGM

Postby Tuppence » Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:45 pm

I assume it has occurred to people that some people have no interest in attending.


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Re: REMINDER - NMTF Historic Traders Branch AGM

Postby Pete the Pong » Thu Mar 04, 2010 2:04 pm

Tuppence wrote:I assume it has occurred to people that some people have no interest in attending.

Of course! Many (if not most) people will have no interest whatsoever in attending. AGM's are not exactly exiting events, and if a member is quite happy with the way the branch is run then there is no real "need" for them to waste their time at what can be a very boring meeting. However the Historic Traders Branch of the NMTF derives its (quite considerable) strength from the very fact that we are just that, a well respected branch of a massive national institution, and as such have to work within their rule book. Which means the "officers" have to be democratically elected each year, and that means holding an AGM which all members can attend should they so wish.


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Re: REMINDER - NMTF Historic Traders Branch AGM

Postby Martin » Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:27 pm

Holding the meeting 30 minutes after the official closing time makes it impossible for us to attend.
ditto what Jackie and Noctule say, it simply aint possible for me to do it after standing and talking all day and I would say thats the same for the majority that dont turn up, surely Sunday 10 am / 9.30 am would suit far more people and get a bigger attendance ? :)


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Re: REMINDER - NMTF Historic Traders Branch AGM

Postby Apothecary » Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:33 pm

is there any chance we could have the meeting either at the beggining of the year or at the end of it like a conference - say at a cheep travel lodge or something like as I am a bit fed up with either not trading at Tewks or not being able to have a say in stuff as there is no postal stuff or unless you approach someone you know is gonna be there who might or might not have the opportunity to say something - and they can put it forward on your behalf, but can't discuss points raised as it's not there baby, personally I would like to see some sort of liason or MTF appointed co-ordinators at each market, who can talk to the orgainsers and get on site stuff sorted out without having to put up with usual CR@PY not interested about what you have to say because we have your pitch fee and what do you mean you thought we would advertise or put signes out, surely there are sensible people out there who could help as we constantly pay our pitch fee and get very little in return - only what the organiser seems to want to give ( which from my prospective is less and less for your money )- can we set sensible standards of Organisation? Can the NMTF legal Dept draft some sort of contract for us to utilise with outside organisers to give basic outlines of what is acceptable behaviour from orgainsers and request from members? we pay out hard earned cash out as for council run markets there is a superintendant and he does all the liasing with the market traders, but we got nothing like that, if we have a grievence then your on your own so it makes you less likely to have a legitamate moan or complain as you might get told to leave the site - as I know this has happened before to traders..........what is a girl to do ?

Any takers on these points ?

Regards
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Re: REMINDER - NMTF Historic Traders Branch AGM

Postby Pete the Pong » Mon Mar 08, 2010 4:19 pm

Several points coming up here
Firstly, from a purely technical point of view the date and place of the AGM is set by the Chairman, who of course is now Roger. In practise it usually ends up as a joint decision between the Chairman and Secretary (ie Duke Henry) bearing in mind all the arguements put forward above.
There is no reason whatsoever why another meeting should be held at some other time, but it would only be able to recommend changes, not enforce them. Many years ago there was even talk of having an annual trader's banquet following such a meeting. But nothing ever came of it. Trying to get traders to firstly agree dates and places, then secondly to actually turn up is considerably more difficult than herding cats.
The Market Superintendant at Council run markets is a paid council official and is there to check that all the stalls comply with their license to trade. Although I'm sure that most of them listen to traders and will pass on concerns, that is not their role.
As far as our markets are concerned, at the majority of them (agreed not all) there will be at least one elected committee member present. He or she can represent a trader in any disputes with the organiser should that trader so wish. In fact, during my years as Chairman I was asked to do this on a number of occassions, and apart from one notable exception everything was resolved quietly behind the scenes. However, being in general quite strong characters, I have found that most traders prefer to fight their own battles.
It is also important to recognise what is, and what is not a legitimate cause for concern. Any breach of the Law of Markets and Fairs (usually known as Pease and Chitties) is a serious problem. For us this mainly covers access rights, prior agreements of goods for sale etc. Unfortunately it does not cover inefficiency and poor organisation. Also we mainly work on what are technically private (closed) markets -and in a nut shell the organiser of the market can legally invite or reject who they like and impose whatever restrictions they like so long as it doesn't break P&C.
Our greatest strength is to be able to talk amongst ourselves and with our customers. If a market gets a bad reputation then we can vote with our feet and simply not attend.


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Re: REMINDER - NMTF Historic Traders Branch AGM

Postby houseoffreyja » Tue Mar 09, 2010 2:32 pm

It is all very well not to do a market next time, after you have found out that the organiser is not organised. But, by then, you've paid out your money and not made any, at that event.
The things traders are usually not happy with is, bad or non existant advertising and no signs leading the public to the event.
Traders don't want much, but public to sell to, is high up on the list. We pay the organiser to advertise the event and guide the public there. Some, can't even manage that. So, what are we paying for?
Is there something that the N.M.T.F can do about this? Is it breach of contract?
Or do we pay just for a bit of grass and nothing else?
Elaine



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Re: REMINDER - NMTF Historic Traders Branch AGM

Postby The Iron Dwarf » Tue Mar 09, 2010 2:42 pm

I think that unless you have a contract with the organizer stating what they will do you are probably just getting a bit of probably muddy grass



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Re: REMINDER - NMTF Historic Traders Branch AGM

Postby Pete the Pong » Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:35 pm

Firstly, to remind everyone that should you need it, as an NMTF member you can have a free 30 minute consultation with a solicitor who is familiar with Market Trading law. Please do not take my word for everything, I am NOT legally trained. I am simply giving an opinion based on many years of experience (and also having read Pease and Chitties!!!!)
Unfortunately as I see it the Iron Dwarf is absolutely correct in saying that unless there is a prior written contract, then there can be no breach of it!
Technically what your stall fee in fact pays for is simply the "License to Trade" on that market. If for one reason or another the market flops, as does sometimes happen, unfortunately I don't think that there is any legal requisite for the organiser to compensate the traders. And apart from anything else, he or she would probably by that time have no money anyway -the stall fees we pay on "Historic" markets only cover a fraction of the cost of organising them.


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Re: REMINDER - NMTF Historic Traders Branch AGM

Postby The Iron Dwarf » Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:37 pm

Please do not take my word for everything, I am NOT legally trained. I am simply giving an opinion


and I have less experience than him and have not read Pease and Chitties but sometimes common sense proves correct and if there is no contract a person cannot be in breach of it so you get your bit of soggy turf and a license to trade ( even if it is to passing ducks ).



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Re: REMINDER - NMTF Historic Traders Branch AGM

Postby Fox » Wed Mar 10, 2010 2:12 pm

houseoffreyja wrote:It is all very well not to do a market next time, after you have found out that the organiser is not organised. But, by then, you've paid out your money and not made any, at that event.
The things traders are usually not happy with is, bad or non existant advertising and no signs leading the public to the event.
Traders don't want much, but public to sell to, is high up on the list. We pay the organiser to advertise the event and guide the public there. Some, can't even manage that. So, what are we paying for?
Is there something that the N.M.T.F can do about this? Is it breach of contract?
Or do we pay just for a bit of grass and nothing else?
Elaine


As someone occasionally stood on the other side of this fence, there is nothing the organiser wants more than to get the public in.

As a trader your costs are relatively low: transport, food and so on. Your real sizable risk is the in potentia earnings that you lose if public attendance is poor, in other words the waste of your valuable time.

But the organiser has invested both more time and, most significantly, probably much more of his own money, in laying on the event. For them, a poor turn out can be disasterous, possibly ruinous. So nothing is probably a higher priority to them than bums on seats (or shoes in a field, in our case).
On top of that they are trying to keep the re-enactors happy, people who straddle divide between ameuter hobbiests who are benefitting from the event and very cheap employees.
Further muddy this with traders who make most of their money from the re-enactors, who are concerned with how many will be there, whether they will spend, and even "are they exactly the same lot as last week".

Clearly event organisers often have problems attracting public to an event; sometimes circumstance (like the weather), sometimes there own stupid mistakes. But trying to extract money from them afterwards is wasting your time, because no one will be more broke than them.



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Re: REMINDER - NMTF Historic Traders Branch AGM

Postby Pete the Pong » Wed Mar 10, 2010 2:33 pm

Fox wrote: As a trader your costs are relatively low: transport, food and so on. Your real sizable risk is the in potentia earnings that you lose if public attendance is poor, in other words the waste of your valuable time.

Not always that low!!!!
I'm costing up events much more accurately than I used to, and adding together transport, accomodation for an indoor event, pitch fee etc. I'm usually looking to wave goodbye to at least £250 before I leave the door. And of course take is not profit, I have to buy the stock in the first place (or make the books) Jackie has to buy material and spend a lot of time making cloaks etc etc. So if we don't take enough we can all lose heavily, and obviously to lose £250 four times is to lose £1000. Which is bad news.
As traders it's a risk we have to take.


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Re: REMINDER - NMTF Historic Traders Branch AGM

Postby Fox » Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:08 pm

Pete the Pong wrote:
Fox wrote: As a trader your costs are relatively low: transport, food and so on. Your real sizable risk is the in potentia earnings that you lose if public attendance is poor, in other words the waste of your valuable time.

Not always that low!!!!
I'm costing up events much more accurately than I used to, and adding together transport, accomodation for an indoor event, pitch fee etc. I'm usually looking to wave goodbye to at least £250 before I leave the door.


Sorry, Pete, I'm not belittling a trader's ecconmics. I'm well aware of how fagile and vulnerable they are; as you point out, someone I love very much makes her living that way.
I also know that the in potentia loses disrupting the cash flow can be just as important.

But I stand by what I said, an organiser could lose not hundreds of pounds, but thousands of pounds, on a bad public turnout, and probably has a break even point that is harder to achieve than most traders.

I'm not trying to defend bad, or even unlucky, organisers, merely pointing out the futility of trying to retrieve money from them if the public turnout wasn't what you would have wished for.



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Re: REMINDER - NMTF Historic Traders Branch AGM

Postby Martin » Wed Mar 10, 2010 5:32 pm

But the organiser has invested both more time and, most significantly, probably much more of his own money, in laying on the event
unfortunatly m8, alot of people who organise the smaller end of the reenactment shows are bloody useless when it comes to advertising their shows, its got so bad that myself and other traders have had to take part in making sure its advertised and thats whay we pay a pitch fee, an organisor cant guarantee punters unfortunatly, but every single trader has been to shows where there has been zero advertising, I dont mind helping out occasionally advertising as it is for our own benefit but there are some organisors out there who rely on the traders pitch fee's to cover much of the cost of the show and show very little respect to the traders themselves, sad but true, then on the other end of the scale there are organisors who are great, unfortunatly, a weekend wasted by some shiester who thought he could turn a quick buck by skimping on adverts/posters/flyers etc can be a really serious financial loss, if your total livelyhood depends on a "reasonable" take each and every w/end then any small set back is a disaster , especially at the moment :) , look at Tintagel last year for a classic example a show cancelled on the main day and reopened 2 hours before the show was due to close, each and every trader there was of the same opinion, that the show could have been opened all day, a beautiful, warm summers day in Cornwall, if there was someone there who could be a traders rep recognised by the NMTF it would have opened a damn sight sooner, as it was we all had to get together to sort it out ourselves :) unfortunatly unless they are going to get paid why would they want the responsibility and do a job that means there will be confrontation every now and again :)


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Re: REMINDER - NMTF Historic Traders Branch AGM

Postby Fox » Wed Mar 10, 2010 5:54 pm

Tintagel?
I remember a show of that name, but hasn't it passed on [as a result of that year's happenings]?
Trying to get money out of a now defunct, charity show is even more pointless than normal.

It's not whether it's right or wrong, but whether trying to gain recompence is a valuable use of your resources.

I often think that some traders don't think.
Everyone who complained that, in the old days (i.e. before I was involved in the organising), Caldicot wasn't advertised was fooling themselves.
The show has no gate, so it's only income was the £10 pitch fees the traders paid, which most would not pay in advance.
Where on earth do you think an advertising budget was going to come from?

As for event organisers making a quick buck, good luck finding that person.



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Re: REMINDER - NMTF Historic Traders Branch AGM

Postby Hon_Kitty » Wed Mar 10, 2010 6:09 pm

Acht guys can we *not* get into naming events please.

Not sure that it's constructive, especially when the events have been - controversial, let's say. I suspect it can only lead to heated feelings achieving precious little apart from rattling some old bones.

Following this thread with interest btw rather than nosiness as me and HIs Nibs have been kicking around the idea of starting our own business for a while now and arrival of Splodge on the scene may be the opportunity one of us needs to work from home. And would rather it stayed an interesting and informative thread rather than a finger-point.
Which is NOT a go at anyone who's posted to date. I just remember the Tintagel thread at the time and how many people were upset, and would rather not see things take the same turn.

As you were.... :silent:




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