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Maciejowski bible

Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 1:56 pm
by Paddy
Hello all,
Just a quicky, and I feel a bit stupid asking it, but would feel stupider if I was wrong. If I spot something in it that looks like a fun piece of kit, can it be taken as correct for 1248-78 (given the ~1250 date of creation)?

I ask as I'm loking at this detail section


and had assumed (without checking back) that by this point a nasal-type helm was made from one piece of metal, but both of these are from sections, and the chap on the left appears to have a more rounded than pointed helm (forgive the lack of technical terms :oops: ).

What it all boils down to is, I've been offered a rounded nasal made from sections (2 if I remeber it right), and am wondering if it would do for 1248-78, using this as a justification.

Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 2:07 pm
by Simon_Diment
Be careful Paddy, if you pay careful attention to the Maciejowski bible then you'll see that the 'hero' characters are generally dressed in the most modern kit available for the period while the ungodly are dressed in archaic fashions.

The spangen helm would possible have still been in use for the lower ranks would would have been practically an antique design.



Would recommend getting your hands on 'Old Testament Miniatures' which reprints a large chunk of the bible.

Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 2:12 pm
by Paddy
Spangen helm, that's the b**ger! :D

Hmmm, the warning is appreciated, thanks. As I'm sure everyone's sick of hearing, I'm trying to go for a sergeant on foot, and the Orders were short of materials, being pretty keen on making sure arms and armour went east and stayed there - but still too modern for one then?

Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 4:06 pm
by gregory23b
Also the man on the right, his helmet looks more pointed because the blakc outline is thicker and wonkier, that variation is IMHO accidental not intentional, esp if you see the right hand side of it has thinner outlines, even the best illustrators have wobbly moments.

Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 1:40 pm
by Colin Middleton
I'd say that for a sergeant, you're probably okay. The rounded top indicates a later form of 'nut helm' and I think that cheaper helms of the period could still be made in 2 pieces. For 1278, you're probably better off looking at barrel helms and kettle hats, though I think that 'nut' and spangen helms were used (with decreasing popularity) through the whole 13th C.

I'd take a closer look at what the heros are wearing though.


Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 12:12 am
by Andreas
I would agree with Colin and go for an early kettlehat, especially for an orders sergeant. Several German manuscripts show kettlehats with assembled four-piece calotte at least as early as 1220.

And I find it hard to imagine that even in the West the kit given out to professional Templars and Hospitallers would not have been of current technological standards - even though the British island at the time might have been slightly behind the continental development.

In my personal opinion I would deem nasal helmets OK for professional foot troops up to 1220, and for non-professional troops maybe up to 1250 - 70ish (stretching it). In remote areas (Wales, Scotland, Ireland) possibly longer, but there I am speculating somewhat.

Might also be entirely wrong, can only base it on my understanding of things.