Kettle Helmet Question

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Paddy
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Kettle Helmet Question

Post by Paddy »

Okay then, two questions, one easy, one hard.

Easy one: Who makes them, and will be at Tewkesbury? I have weird proportions (big head, short legs) that means all those I've tried before have either looked like Stan Laurels bowler hat, or the dreaded sombrero of doom!

Hard one: How do I specify (and differentiate) one suitable ~3rd Crusade from a later period.

Ta very much for any help offered.
War's long done. We're all just folk now.

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Dickie
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Post by Dickie »

Can only really answer Q1, try Roy King (got a nice one from him at TORM) and also Get Dressed for Battle...

Can't really answer Q2, not without looking at piccies...
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Nigel
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Post by Nigel »

ah erm 3rd Crusade 1190 or so

Not sure if Kettle was actually in use then

have asked our wa person and will get back

would recommend GDFB too
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saxon
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Post by saxon »

The kettle or 'chapel de fer' is supposed to have been introduced at the end of the 12th century. There are many disputes to say it was later than this also. However, considering most development in body armour and protection in Western Europe was as a result of the Crusades then personally i would go with the late 12th century theory.
So you could get away with one as use for the 3rd crusade period, it was certainly a well established and much used helmet by the knights in Outremer during this period. The shape and idea of this particular helmet may have come from the mongol/samurai styles.
If you do decide to go ahead with one for this period then maybe the domed top would be more accurate, they seemed to get slightly more pointed towards the mid 13th century onwards.
It was still worn as an alternative to the bascinet and sallet in the 14th and 15th centuries, most probably the forerunner to the cabasset and morion of the 16th centuries.
Try also to get one that has the crossbanding across the skull part as rather than being beaten from a single piece of iron (as later ones would have been) earlier helmets still adopted the cross frame construction with the gaps filled in with smaller plates, plus also the brim around the lower edge would more than likely have been an additional piece joined to the skull part with a brow band of iron.

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Post by Nigel »

Ok Saxon nice arguement

first pictorial image I knosw of is 1265 the unpronouncable bible

Would be interested to know of something earlier

From our A person
In this country, fist pictures are 1220. First written reference is
about 1200.

France it's about ten years earlier but I have no confidence in sources,
around the Med/reconquista etc maybe 1180's. Jeruselum, that's anybodies
guess but 1180/90's would be very earliest and they would be very very
crude indeed; so rim tacked onto dome helm possibly, maybe even rim of
leather, used by sappers not on the field. It would certainly not be a
metal one in European style used by infantry or cavelry.

I believe the Turks had something similar, but that may be an over
simplification.
There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

Paddy
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Post by Paddy »

Cheers guys, thats enough info to pester suppliers with :lol:
War's long done. We're all just folk now.

Paddy
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Location: Birmingham Uni

Post by Paddy »

saxon wrote:The kettle or 'chapel de fer' is supposed to have been introduced at the end of the 12th century. There are many disputes to say it was later than this also. However, considering most development in body armour and protection in Western Europe was as a result of the Crusades then personally i would go with the late 12th century theory.
So you could get away with one as use for the 3rd crusade period, it was certainly a well established and much used helmet by the knights in Outremer during this period. The shape and idea of this particular helmet may have come from the mongol/samurai styles.
If you do decide to go ahead with one for this period then maybe the domed top would be more accurate, they seemed to get slightly more pointed towards the mid 13th century onwards.
It was still worn as an alternative to the bascinet and sallet in the 14th and 15th centuries, most probably the forerunner to the cabasset and morion of the 16th centuries.
Try also to get one that has the crossbanding across the skull part as rather than being beaten from a single piece of iron (as later ones would have been) earlier helmets still adopted the cross frame construction with the gaps filled in with smaller plates, plus also the brim around the lower edge would more than likely have been an additional piece joined to the skull part with a brow band of iron.
Jyst to be doubly sure, something like this, but with cross banding, and that fits.

Image
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Marcus Woodhouse
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Post by Marcus Woodhouse »

I got an exact copy of this from windlass Arms. It works (have been belted around head a few times and not died) and was quite cheap. it also provoked a favourablr response of one of the Morrigans (and you know that lot don't like to praise anyone). I've allowed to rust a little now and it looks more like a campaigners helmet, mine came with the padding and stuff fitted as well. Go Irish!
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Marcus Woodhouse
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Post by Marcus Woodhouse »

did you ever get your kettle helm, Irish? It may be that me daughter won't be needing her war hat you see.
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