Padded Armour - Collars

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Phoenix Rising
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Padded Armour - Collars

Postby Phoenix Rising » Sun Jun 16, 2013 12:58 pm

I've been curious about these items for a while, as you see them on Reenactment sites such as GDFB etc.

Whilst I know there is a wealth of evidence for the actual use of padded armour such as jacks, arming jackets etc, is there evidence that such collars (ie, padded armour protecting the neck / upper part of the chest and tops of the arms) was also widely used? From what I've been able to glean I believe that the use of this would be mainly under mail to help lessen the effect of a blow, but how widely might such padded collars used by perhaps archers or men at arms in the field?

I'm always wary of taking products at face value as I think it is very easy for a vendor to describe an item as being 'medieval' etc and it just being little more than a fantasy item! :(



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zauberdachs
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Re: Padded Armour - Collars

Postby zauberdachs » Sun Jun 16, 2013 10:21 pm

The Maciejowski Bible has fairly entensive representation of padded collars in use by infantry.

http://www.keesn.nl/mac/


Do not be loath, diligent reader, to winnow my chaff, and lay up the wheat in the storehouse of your memory. For truth regards not who is the speaker, nor in what manner it is spoken, but that the thing be true - Nennius, 8th century

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Re: Padded Armour - Collars

Postby Nigel » Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:03 pm

As far as I can tell as wrong as a wrong thing

Collars yes attached to Gambies evidenced as Ben says or as mentione din that well known comment by an arming doublet maker. But as a seperate piece nope not seen any evidence If it's there would love to see it and will retract the above.


There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

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Biro
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Re: Padded Armour - Collars

Postby Biro » Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:34 pm

There are plenty seperate collars shown in the mac bible, as mentioned - but not of the style you're talking about. These are just the collar and don't include the shoulder/chest part.

Of course from a manuscript, who can say whether they were padded or not.. I've com across literary references of baleen used in collars - which makes more sense to me since a 'soft armour' (mail+padding) doesn't feel enough for the throat..

Here are some pics I've captured:

http://dawnofchivalry.wikispaces.com/Arming+Collar



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Colin Middleton
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Re: Padded Armour - Collars

Postby Colin Middleton » Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:20 pm

If you're talking about things like these http://steel-mastery.com/en/padded-armour/padded-pelerines-and-aventails, http://www.theknightshop.co.uk/catalog/padded-collar-black-p-3499.html or http://www.darkknightarmoury.com/p-12052-padded-collar.aspx I would go with Biro and Nigel's comments. As Biro and Zauberdacs said, the Maciejowski Bible shows what appear to be a number of padded collars (and several that I suspect are hardened leather), but they do appear to be just the collar, nothing on the chest. Interestingly Blair in his Europen Armour book talks about the appearance of a proto-bevour type garmen (made of steel even) appearing in the 13th C. There is one quite famous one on an effigy (I think Spanish), which is clearly a metal collar, stood out from the face.

I can't speak for periods outside the 13th and 15th C, but excepting the above, I'd avoid them for both those centuries.


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Phoenix Rising
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Re: Padded Armour - Collars

Postby Phoenix Rising » Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:33 pm

I had heard that the idea of a padded collar was to both help distribute the weight of mail about the shoulders, and also that the padded part would help to soften the impact of a blow (ie, the mail would help protect against a sword slash but the padded part beneath would help take the impact value out of the blow)

However, if it is the case that such things have no evidence to base them on, is it not the case that the manufacturers / vendors of such items are guilty of both mis-representing them as being from the medieval era and also of defrauding their potential customers who might be buying these items at face value?



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Colin Middleton
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Re: Padded Armour - Collars

Postby Colin Middleton » Fri Jun 21, 2013 12:40 pm

It's not that there is no evidence for them, more that the evidence that is there is being misinterpreted and expanded upon. Unfortunately a lot of re-enactment traders are guilty of this and we as consumers are guilty of buying those products. That's just the nature of the business I guess though.


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Biro
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Re: Padded Armour - Collars

Postby Biro » Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:17 pm

Phoenix Rising wrote:However, if it is the case that such things have no evidence to base them on, is it not the case that the manufacturers / vendors of such items are guilty of both mis-representing them as being from the medieval era and also of defrauding their potential customers who might be buying these items at face value?


Absolutely. It's rife and you shouldn't buy anything unless either:

a) You know from your own knowledge/research how accurate it is because you've seen the evidence.

b) You can trust the trader - usually you can tell because either you've heard from others, or much of what he sells does have provenence, and/or when asked he will actually try to find what matches your period and as a result exclude a large portion of his stock because it's not right for you. The ones that tell you its "ok for all periods" or "everything here is ok for your period" are generally stretching the truth and will be happy to sell you stuff that is wrong.

Personally, if I'm looking to buy something that I don't know much about, I'm very careful about what traders I use becasue I'm relient on their knowledge and not mine.



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zauberdachs
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Re: Padded Armour - Collars

Postby zauberdachs » Mon Jun 24, 2013 2:33 am

Biro wrote: You know from your own knowledge/research how accurate it is because you've seen the evidence.


I think this is what you have to go with in the end. Many traders, even reputable ones, are as guilty as the rest of us of picking up "common knowledge" reenactorisms and then simply creating what the market expects.

For example pretty much every 15th century "doublet" I've seen made by traders, reputable or otherwise, has the points attach at the waistband but the most common place for points to attach that I've seen from evidence is at the end of the garment. Also the doublets tend to have the look and feel of cotes. But this is how it is done, it is what everyone who buys from the trader expects and it is such a common thing that I don't think you would even think to question it.


Do not be loath, diligent reader, to winnow my chaff, and lay up the wheat in the storehouse of your memory. For truth regards not who is the speaker, nor in what manner it is spoken, but that the thing be true - Nennius, 8th century

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Re: Padded Armour - Collars

Postby Nigel » Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:08 am

Re collars if youa re talking about the one's I think you mean then they are awful truly hideous.

But remember some traders do not manufacture themsleves therefore they buy in and buy in what they think will sell at a good margin hence the large numbers of the same things you see at some markets.

I did pull my copy of the bible off the shelf but as yet haven't had chance to open it but will.

Re points and other details speaking personally and I know others do this too we offer choices and we try to guide a customer to where they should be BUT often the customer or their advisors know what they want.


There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.


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