What's wrong with the movie Braveheart?

Historic questions, thoughts and other interesting stuff

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guthrie
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Postby guthrie » Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:03 pm

Yes, I've seen him. I walk past him every time I visit the castle (and living in Edinburgh and being interested in castles as well as a member of HS and liking the views form the castle, thats usually at least once a year)
and have to restrain myself from demonstrating the basics of medieval combat on him.

if you want a real laugh, google for "Prince michael of Albany", who is a deluded (possibly even clinically insane) bloke who goes around pretending he is descended from Prince Charles edward Stuart. If i ever meet him I intend to tell him he's a fool, and challenge his entire entourage to a duel.



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Postby craig1459 » Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:10 pm

guthrie wrote: have to restrain myself from demonstrating the basics of medieval combat on him.


There is so much embarrassing tat there

I'd like to take a mangonel up the Royal Mile and let fly...


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Postby Alan_F » Thu Nov 10, 2005 11:19 pm

colonelboris wrote:Any one else seen that bloke near Edinburgh castle dressed up like a poor extra from that film telling the Yanks 'that's how it really was'. Oh how I laughed... That and the line of descent of the Scottish crown, ending in ERII, but they still whine on about then not being the real Royal family up there.
Grr...


I had an argument with him once. He said he would "Brain me" after I asked him for his sources. Nice to see debate alive and well. :roll:



There is so much embarrassing tat there

I'd like to take a mangonel up the Royal Mile and let fly...


I'd prefer a strategic air bombing campaign.....

Incidentally Craig and Guthrie, did you know that 95% of those businesses that are on the Mile are run by people not from Edinburgh?


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Postby craig1459 » Thu Nov 10, 2005 11:46 pm

Alan_F wrote:[
Incidentally Craig and Guthrie, did you know that 95% of those businesses that are on the Mile are run by people not from Edinburgh?


Doesn't surprise me, but as a "Wegie" I'd happily carpet bomb the whole place :twisted:


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Postby WorkMonkey » Fri Nov 11, 2005 12:43 am

Vlad wrote:The story goes that Edward II met Gaveston at the dockside and kissed him - on the forehead, the lips, the palms of both hands, the groin and then on both feet ...

It was the idea of the new king geting all smoochy with some bloke's feet that seemed to confirm his sexuality.



As apposed to his groin. 8)


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Postby guthrie » Fri Nov 11, 2005 12:09 pm

I guessed that most of the businesses werent local run. It didnt help when a few years ago now I went into one of the newsagents, had a used irn-bru bottle (glass) with me, and the bloke behind the counter didnt want to give me the usual 20p you get for them. He wasnt from Edinburgh either.

Strategic air bombing campaign? I would have to have you tortured to death for causing the destruction of historical architecture. I would suggest instead a rampaging mob of historically concerned people, and a mass burning of tat on the esplanade, after which the shops can be turned into something better. Like pig styes.

Anyone with me on the Prince michael of Albany thing?



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Postby gregory23b » Fri Nov 11, 2005 1:35 pm

Guthrie
"I would suggest instead a rampaging mob of historically concerned people..."

superb.

:D


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Postby guthrie » Fri Nov 11, 2005 1:52 pm

Thanks!

And whats even better is that its historically accurate. The Edinburgh mob had something of a bad reputation back in the 18th and possibly 17th centuries. Apart from the Porteus affair, they were also apparently roused into violent action by such incidents as traders nobbling their scales and selling underweight etc. And as for pig styes on the Royal Mile, thats what it used to be like 400 years ago.



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Postby Alan_F » Sat Nov 12, 2005 12:18 am

Anyone with me on the Prince michael of Albany thing?


I hadn't heard of him in a while - as I recall he's Protestant as well and believes that Charles Edward Staurt was as well. Will see if I can find his website.


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Postby Alan_F » Sat Nov 12, 2005 12:42 am

For anyone interested in his looniness, try here:

http://www.royalhouseofstewart.org.uk/

In which we hear about how:
Unlike in England , Scotland 's monarchs have always been constitutional


That must come as something of a shock to anyone who's actually studied Scottish History. Incidentally, has anyone ever seen this constitution?

And on the Prince himself:
it is his intention to create Scottish Chambers of Commerce .


Is he paying?


But enough of that, let's just jump into fantasy mode and hear his claims about Edinburgh Castle:
There has always been a fortress on this great volcanic rock and it has connotation with the historical King Arthur,


Again, amazing how this has passed by so many scottish Historians. And not only did it do that but:
It housed all successive Kings of Scots of the Stewart dynasty, most as their home and some as their prison, as in the manner of Alexander, Duke of Albany, and James III.


Apart fom those ones that lives in Stirling Castle. And those that legged it abroad.

But HRH has moe to say, this time on the subject of pylons being erected in Stirling:
the Sheriffmuir Battlefield and then down through Yellowcraig Wood behind Logie Kirk. This is where it gets really outrageous. Because of the steep gradient, it appears that most of this community wood will be taken out. This, of course, means that the beautiful backdrop to the Wallace Monument will be destroyed. It will cease to exist!!


How odd. As a student of Stirling University, I'm pretty sure that the Uni is behind the Wallace Monument. And there are no plans to put up Pylons there.....[/url]


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Postby guthrie » Sat Nov 12, 2005 5:39 pm

I read all that a few months ago. I'm neither a strong Royalist or republican, but it really annoys me to see someone apparently trying to be royal and mangling the history etc in the process.

Then his photo of himself as a child with the regalia of SCotland looks so bad it has to be a fake.

And Alan, if you look around carefully, you can find photos to do with the William wallace celebrations.....



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Postby Alan_F » Sun Nov 13, 2005 7:39 pm

guthrie wrote:I read all that a few months ago. I'm neither a strong Royalist or republican, but it really annoys me to see someone apparently trying to be royal and mangling the history etc in the process.

Then his photo of himself as a child with the regalia of SCotland looks so bad it has to be a fake.

And Alan, if you look around carefully, you can find photos to do with the William wallace celebrations.....


He really is amazing, isn't he? He also has (various) rants at Tony Blair - does he honestly expect that these rants will lead to Blair being swept away and him brought into power?


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Postby guthrie » Sun Nov 13, 2005 9:17 pm

Ahhh, but he doesnt want to be in power, he just wants to "advise" from the sidelines. Making a bid for the throne would mean people like Lord Lyon King of Arms asking interesting questions about his family history.

(Nothing against ranting about Tony Blair, I do it myself, but...)



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Postby zauberdachs » Mon Nov 14, 2005 6:53 pm

Alan_F wrote:
colonelboris wrote:Any one else seen that bloke near Edinburgh castle dressed up like a poor extra from that film telling the Yanks 'that's how it really was'. Oh how I laughed... That and the line of descent of the Scottish crown, ending in ERII, but they still whine on about then not being the real Royal family up there.
Grr...


I had an argument with him once. He said he would "Brain me" after I asked him for his sources. Nice to see debate alive and well. :roll:
[/qoute]

The guys name is Adam, he's really nice and freely admits to me that he knows f-all about history. What he does is an act and he assumes the role of an agressive warrior character. If you catch him off character I'm sure you would find him very approachable.

Provided you didn't go up to him and say something like "i think what you are doing is s**t" ... you might be thinking it, but i'd suggest that what you really have a problem with is the Scottish tourist industry in general. Naturally the tourists, i.e. Americans, love it :roll:


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Postby Alan_F » Mon Nov 14, 2005 7:10 pm

Provided you didn't go up to him and say something like "i think what you are doing is s**t" ... you might be thinking it, but i'd suggest that what you really have a problem with is the Scottish tourist industry in general. Naturally the tourists, i.e. Americans, love it


Ah well, that's the problem - I do think what he's doing is s***e. Personally, and I know others here share this idea, I believe that there's more to Scottish History than doing the 'Noble Savage' routine.[/code]


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Postby zauberdachs » Mon Nov 14, 2005 7:22 pm

I work in performing arts and can sympathise with him. He has a market and exploits that, but he is not responsible for it.

What are those others like on the Mile? Like Mary Kings close? I've never been but I always see the folk dressed up handing out fliers.


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Postby Alan_F » Mon Nov 14, 2005 7:30 pm

zauberdachs wrote:I work in performing arts and can sympathise with him. He has a market and exploits that, but he is not responsible for it.

What are those others like on the Mile? Like Mary Kings close? I've never been but I always see the folk dressed up handing out fliers.


I won't deny that Mary King's close is an enjoyable tour, they just a deplorable dearth of facts about the period they're talking about. They also seem unsure what it is they're doing - from the fliers you're led to expect a Ghost Tour, but instead it's a tour about the history of Mary King's close. They are also dressed interestingly - the men all wear 14th century clothing and the women 16th century.


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Postby Guest » Mon Nov 14, 2005 7:53 pm

That's shocking, considering they have a budget and it would have taken them very little effort to get it right... :x



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Postby Colin MacDonald » Wed Nov 16, 2005 5:44 pm

zauberdachs wrote:[Alan MacShortbread of the Clan MacShortbread in Edinburgh] has a market and exploits that, but he is not responsible for it.


He is responsible for his own behaviour though, and if he's going to expound his opinion in a public place, he should be prepared for other people to do the same without losing, or appearing to lose, his rag, if for no other reason than that the press don't like to waste time making subtle distinctions between "independent costumed entertainer" and "living historian". To them, we're all witches.



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Postby David F » Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:59 pm

Guthrie, I'm with you re "Prince Michael of Albany", I've actully been "presented" to him about 12 years ago. It was called the "Soiree of the White Cockade", if I remember rightly the chief of Clan Ranald was there with his son Rupert, I kid you not Rupert.
I came away from that meeting secure in the knowledge that the French were right and a gillotine was needed.

By the way, at that time prince Mick was just claiming to be decended from a chambermaid who was a mistress of Prince Charles Edward Stuart while he was in France.
That was before he wrote his book, where it seems Prince Charlie married the said chambermaid in spite of being married already.

He is also banned from all Historic Scotland propeties after hireing Stirling Castle great hall for an evening function and neglecting to pay the bill on the grounds that since he is the "rightful King of Scots" it belongs to him...


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Postby guthrie » Thu Nov 17, 2005 10:21 pm

Cool, I think that makes 2 or 3 of us, I assume Alan F would be up for it given his comments up thread.

(Note to the squeamish, gvt censors, lawyers, etc etc, I am not suggesting we go and commit assault or such, just that it would be interesting to go and have a word with said people)

Rupert is a perfectly good name.

I like the Stirling castle thing. The Stewart society had their AGM there 5 years ago, and kind of hinted that as some of their members were descended from the blokes who built it, any chance of it costing less? Needless to say HS told us where to get off.

I just so much want to see the Lord Lyon take him to court.

Oh yes, and we dont need any french choppers, we have the maiden, one of which is in the museum of scotland, you should go and see it.



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Postby David F » Thu Nov 17, 2005 11:17 pm

I agree, Rupert is a perfectly good name for a chap from Sussex, it's just that I'm a bit of a romantic and the thought of Rupert MacDonald of ClanRanald is just so, so not right.

Quite right for HS to refuse you a discount, (Some of the bosses may see this site and I'm hoping for a pay rise.)

I'd forgot about the Maiden, we could set it up outside St Giles.

For the Lord Lyon's charge sheet, Prince Mick is selling knighthoods to rich Americans for £3000 a pop, for a measly £5000 you can be admitted to court and for a further donation you can join the Privy Council!
I'm in the wrong job.


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Postby Alan_F » Fri Nov 18, 2005 12:11 am

For 5K you can watch Prince Michael having a poo? No thanks!


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Postby PaulMurphy » Fri Nov 18, 2005 12:37 am

What Scotland needs is a law which makes it illegal to misrepresent our history and culture. Dress as Mel Gibson if you wish, but claim that it is an accurate portrayal of C13th dress and you'd face a £500 spot fine. Publish a website like the tosh which "Prince" Michael peddles, and you'd do 10 years for fraud and insulting our nation as well as our intelligence.

Where do these people come from???

Interesting to see that the Ponce "knighted" David Ross, and advertises a band called "Albannach" in his newsletter, who happen to be ex-members of "Clann an Drumma", who claim to have written songs for Mal Gimpson's films...

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Postby Alan_F » Fri Nov 18, 2005 2:25 am

PaulMurphy wrote:Are all of the f\/ckwits of the world working together now?


It certainly seems that way - even though 'Prince' Michael claims on his wesbite to be opposed to the tartan and shortbread view of Scotland, you can't help wondering...


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Postby guthrie » Fri Nov 18, 2005 9:50 am

WEll, I am against having lots of laws. We just need to ensure that guidelines are in place that mean that there is nowhere to go for people peddling junk who dont admit it. Screenings of braveheart would have warnings about innaccuracy. Clan Mcshortbread would be unable to do anything in public without repeatedly stating that they are just having some fun and it is not historically accurate. Or something like that. They certainly shouldnt get into schools, or historic properties. That would help reduce their exposure.

As for nitwits, yes they do tend to cluster together. one of my minor interests is reading books on the pyramids and Von Daniken like stuff, because its a good laugh. I have found that in the past 10 years or so, most of hte authors will support each other on the book jacket, i.e. "An exciting new approach to the problems of the pyramids" signed "mr I've written 3 books on them myself."



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Postby zauberdachs » Fri Nov 18, 2005 2:30 pm

guthrie wrote: Clan Mcshortbread would be unable to do anything in public without repeatedly stating that they are just having some fun and it is not historically accurate. Or something like that. They certainly shouldnt get into schools, or historic properties. That would help reduce their exposure.


Who are the Clan Mcshortbreads? Perhaps you are refering to, what were they called?, Clan An or whatever who were at Bannockburn? Who ran there so called "historical" show. This should be banned. I don't mind people who have been hired to do an act for a coreporate show or someting similar but not at a historic event.


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Postby guthrie » Fri Nov 18, 2005 2:44 pm

Yes, precisely. There has to be a clear line drawn between historically accurate (even if pushing the bounds of stuff that historians are arguing about) and made up bilge.



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Postby auldMotherBegg » Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:42 am

Urrmmm... getting back to Braveheart... I really liked the music. The soundtrack is wonderful!...

(Ducks head and shuffles embarrassed towards the door :oops: )



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Postby ViscontesseD'Asbeau » Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:58 pm

That film has a very effective ending - I've never been so emotionally involved in a character's death. I'm cheering the English on to execute him as nastily as possible. :D I always thought those treason executions were a touch over the top (slight over-reaction) til I saw Braveheart. Then I understood the virtues of hanging drawing and quartering.

The casting of the Mrs is quite puzzling too.

The whole thing is more instructive re. the 20thC American racist romanticisation of the 'noble savage', and the fact they're never really worked out their hostility to us post 'revolutionary wars', than it tells us anything about the period it purports to tell us about.




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