Morocco?

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Pete the Pong
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Morocco?

Postby Pete the Pong » Thu Oct 20, 2011 6:38 pm

Has anyone know if there were any links between the UK and Morocco prior to (say) the 18th century? Any trade routes, known travellers, etc etc. Obviously there is "Morocco" leather coming up to this country, which was used a lot in bookbinding, but are there any other products known from that region? I'd be very grateful for any thoughts and references!


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Re: Morocco?

Postby ValTarrant » Thu Oct 20, 2011 6:45 pm

Tangier was part of the dowry of Catherine of Braganza when she married Charles II.



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Re: Morocco?

Postby steve stanley » Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:28 pm

The main link would be the Barbary Corsairs raiding out coasts...16th cent on?.endemic at times.....There were Diplomatic missions to try to get prisoners released.......


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Re: Morocco?

Postby Pete the Pong » Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:18 pm

Ooops, I've posted this in the wrong place. At least for the moment! Can a mod move it please!!!


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Re: Morocco?

Postby Mark Griffin » Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:38 am

Poor Lord Minumus spent a while there. 3 Huzzahs to the worlds smallest duellist!


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Re: Morocco?

Postby Benedict » Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:36 pm

In Rabat (now the administrative capital) there's a mosque founded by an Englishman who wound up with the 'Salee Rovers' (notorious pirates, not a football teamm) somewhere around the 15-16th centuries. I'm rather hazy on the dates, I'm afraid (sorry - I was on holiday and more interested in the almoravids).

Bear in mind that Rabat and Sale (of 'Salee' fame) are separated by a river estuary - it's about a twenty minute bus ride or an hour and a half's leisurely stroll from the one to the other. Both still have their town walls, and the old towns are still fairly quiet places with usual windy streets. The modern city of Rabat is rather busier, built by the French and makes you think you are in Paris.



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Tamsin Lewis
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Re: Morocco?

Postby Tamsin Lewis » Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:07 pm

Very many links
Edmund Hogan, ambassador to Elizabeth I, brought a gift of a bass lute to the emperor and king Muley Abdulmeleck,
More details here
http://www.fullbooks.com/A-General-Hist ... 26037.html

I'm currently involved in a project looking at the historical links between the two countries
http://www.entertainingmorocco.com/english.html

There's a detailed account of the Republic of Salee published in English in the 1630s



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Re: Morocco?

Postby Pete the Pong » Sat Oct 22, 2011 10:58 am

Tamzin, your links here are very very useful, especially the description of Edmund Hogan's visit to Marrakech, and meeting with two englishmen resident there, and the mention of there being other traders there. Thanks!!
If this goes any further I'll pm you.


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Re: Morocco?

Postby czartank » Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:24 pm

According to Moroccan archaeologists one of the seventeenth century queens of Morocco was originally an English captive, but I have never been able to discover what her name was


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Re: Morocco?

Postby Pete the Pong » Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:42 am

czartank wrote:According to Moroccan archaeologists one of the seventeenth century queens of Morocco was originally an English captive, but I have never been able to discover what her name was

Might or might not be relevant, but there is a wonderful middle eastern dessert (not desert!) called Om Ali. Literally , in Arabic,"The mother of Ali" It's basically a bread pudding with almonds, sultanas etc. The story here is that it was originally made for the Sultan by his favourite Irish slave girl, name of O'Mally. Might not be true of course, but a good story nonetheless...


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Re: Morocco?

Postby Tamsin Lewis » Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:40 am

Pete the Pong wrote:Tamzin, your links here are very very useful, especially the description of Edmund Hogan's visit to Marrakech, and meeting with two englishmen resident there, and the mention of there being other traders there. Thanks!!
If this goes any further I'll pm you.

You're welcome. Happy to help if I can



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Re: Morocco?

Postby Lord High Everything Esle » Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:48 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Moroccan_alliance for the Morocan/Barbary company 1860? but earlier trading voyages started in 1551?

a true jounal of the Sally Fleet

http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/LotD ... ID=1710959

you cant afford that copy but there are print on demand version at about £20.

I think I also have evidence somewhere of the import of "Raisins of the Sun" as well as the saltpetre mentioned in the article.


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Re: Morocco?

Postby Lord High Everything Esle » Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:55 pm

PS the bookbinding leather that we call Morocco is probably 18thC? But I could be wrong.


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Re: Morocco?

Postby Tod » Mon Oct 24, 2011 3:31 pm

Moved as requested.



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Re: Morocco?

Postby Pete the Pong » Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:07 pm

Lord High Everything Esle wrote:PS the bookbinding leather that we call Morocco is probably 18thC? But I could be wrong.

Wikipedia suggests that it was certainly used from the late 16th century, so it may well have even been around earlier. Certainly the tanneries in Fez date from at least the 12th century, and they still use the traditional, very smelly, hand techniques to produce all types of leather -including Maroc. The tanneries of Marrakech, which I'm more familiar with, are much smaller, but I would presume also had very early origins


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Re: Morocco?

Postby Lord High Everything Esle » Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:36 pm

I can't see why we would import leathers from such a distance given that we exported leather to France and the cost differential would not have been worth the journey given the more expensive cargoes that were on offer.

I was referring to the finish on the Morocco leather which I still understand was not found in English bookbinding till much later.


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Re: Morocco?

Postby Pete the Pong » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:35 pm

Lord High Everything Esle wrote:I can't see why we would import leathers from such a distance given that we exported leather to France and the cost differential would not have been worth the journey given the more expensive cargoes that were on offer.

I was referring to the finish on the Morocco leather which I still understand was not found in English bookbinding till much later.

Well, as I said, there is a lot here that I am trying to find out to I have no fixed ideas on the subject. However, the "finish" on Morocco leather is precisely what it is about, so it is always possible that at that point the tanneries there had developed a process (probably similar to the ones that they use today) that gave a finer quality that our home produced variety. Are there any reliable refrences to the tanning process here in the UK prior to (say) 1600?
I believe the word Tanning comes from the German for oak -indicating vegetable tanning using bark etc. I don't think that process is used in Morocco (no oak trees). They use organic processes involving pigeon poo etc! This would give a difference to the leather produced. But please note I am very uncertain!!!!!


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Re: Morocco?

Postby SteveC » Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:44 pm

Pete the Pong wrote:
Lord High Everything Esle wrote:I can't see why we would import leathers from such a distance given that we exported leather to France and the cost differential would not have been worth the journey given the more expensive cargoes that were on offer.

I was referring to the finish on the Morocco leather which I still understand was not found in English bookbinding till much later.

Well, as I said, there is a lot here that I am trying to find out to I have no fixed ideas on the subject. However, the "finish" on Morocco leather is precisely what it is about, so it is always possible that at that point the tanneries there had developed a process (probably similar to the ones that they use today) that gave a finer quality that our home produced variety. Are there any reliable refrences to the tanning process here in the UK prior to (say) 1600?
I believe the word Tanning comes from the German for oak -indicating vegetable tanning using bark etc. I don't think that process is used in Morocco (no oak trees). They use organic processes involving pigeon poo etc! This would give a difference to the leather produced. But please note I am very uncertain!!!!!

The German for oak tree is eiche, so probably not the root for tanning -- OH has a degree in German and French so I asked

S



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Re: Morocco?

Postby Pete the Pong » Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:30 am

SteveC wrote:
Pete the Pong wrote:
Lord High Everything Esle wrote:I can't see why we would import leathers from such a distance given that we exported leather to France and the cost differential would not have been worth the journey given the more expensive cargoes that were on offer.

I was referring to the finish on the Morocco leather which I still understand was not found in English bookbinding till much later.

Well, as I said, there is a lot here that I am trying to find out to I have no fixed ideas on the subject. However, the "finish" on Morocco leather is precisely what it is about, so it is always possible that at that point the tanneries there had developed a process (probably similar to the ones that they use today) that gave a finer quality that our home produced variety. Are there any reliable refrences to the tanning process here in the UK prior to (say) 1600?
I believe the word Tanning comes from the German for oak -indicating vegetable tanning using bark etc. I don't think that process is used in Morocco (no oak trees). They use organic processes involving pigeon poo etc! This would give a difference to the leather produced. But please note I am very uncertain!!!!!

The German for oak tree is eiche, so probably not the root for tanning -- OH has a degree in German and French so I asked

S

I don't speak any German, so many thanks for the correction. I was basing my thoughts on the Wikipedia article (OK not the best of sources) which says
The English word for tanning is from medieval Latin tannāre, deriv. of tannum (oak bark), related to Old High German tanna meaning oak or fir (related to modern Tannenbaum). This refers to use of the bark of oaks (the original source of tannin) in some kinds of hide preservation.


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Re: Morocco?

Postby Sophia » Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:52 am

Quick lift from the OED online etymologies plus basic definitions for forms relating to leather processing:

tan n.1

Etymology: probably < French tan (13th cent. in Littré, also in Cotgrave 1611 ‘tan , the barke of a young Oake, wherewith, being small beaten, leather is tanned’) = medieval Latin tannum , apparently of Celtic origin: compare Breton tann (masculine), oak, Cornish glas-tannen evergreen oak, ilex (Thurneysen). Thence the vb., medieval Latin tannāre , Old French tanner to tan; compare also Dutch taan , late Middle Dutch tāne tan, tānen to tan.

A. n.1

I.1. a. The crushed bark of the oak or of other trees, an infusion of which is used in converting hides into leather.


tan v.1

Etymology: Late Old English tannian , evidenced c1000 in past participle getanned , and agent-n. tannere , probably < medieval Latin tannāre (tanare in Erfurt Gloss. a900) to tan (whence past participle tannālus , in Du Cange), < tannum , tan n.1 and adj. Compounds 1. Compare also Old French tanner , taner (13th cent. in Littré), whence apparently the Middle English and modern vb. Compare also Dutch tānen to tan, generally held to be from French.

1. a. trans. To convert (skin or hide) into leather by steeping in an infusion of an astringent bark, as that of the oak, or by a similarly effective process.

A great many public libraries now offer OED online access and it is an excellent source for this source of thing. It also lists all the first usages of the word in the written form which have been located (I haven't included these here).

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