Bandoliers of charge

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Phil the Grips
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Bandoliers of charge

Post by Phil the Grips »

When were these first used? Definitely by the 1540s with heavy muskets, calivers and petronels but any earlier? Maybe with the arquebus? Or were they purely loaded from a flask, gourd, horn or pouch?

I can vaguely recall them being mentioned in a Conquistador context, being annoying when sneaking in a camisado attack, but that covers a fair amount of time from the late C15th onwards.
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Post by John Waller »

Interesting question. I have always thought they originated from the netherlands in the first half of the C16th. Will have a dig through my books.
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Post by steve stanley »

I think there are some Landsknecht engravings that show them...1520-30?....but not as many bottles as later....about 6 on the front.
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Calivers

Post by Dathi »

As far as I know, by the 1570's the caliver was always paired with flask and touch box. Only the musket armed shot were issued bandoliers .]

At least, as far as England goes.

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Post by Phil the Grips »

Forgot I started this :oops:

Makes sense for calivers to not have them as they, and petronels, were "horse pieces" so unlikely to need reloading in the same manner as infantry muskets.
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Bandoliers

Post by Dathi »

Phil

I'm not convinced the bandolier is always being used. I've got references in Muster rolls for the Trained Bands in Hertfordshire for the late 1580's and into the 1590's where musket armed shot just have touchbox and flask. No mention of bandoliers at all.

The you have the Lant Roll of Sir Phillip Sydney from 1587 -ish and the London Trained bands show calivers with flask peeking from under the cassock and bandolier over the cassock on the musket

Try Plate 33 and Plate 32/34 from here

http://wiki.umd.edu/psidney/index.php?title=Main_Page

BTW that bell shaped over coat is what I think the issue cassock looks like on English soldiers.....

Notice the long coat on the Horsman, the lack of cassocks over the armour and the way some sword hangers are hooked to the armour girdle.... (not that I've spent too much time dribbling over these.)

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charges

Post by Dathi »

Spotted this in the Essex Record Office, Morant Manuscripts
D/Y 2/3 p.133


"Qualiver, flaske, touche box, morian, moulde, swyrde and dagger, six charges, covered with leather, having a mandilion of blue cloth. "

From August 1585

That's Calivers issued with a flask and touch box, bullet mould ad 6 leather covered objects, each holding one charge.

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Post by Phil the Grips »

Ooh- nice. Thanks a lot.
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Bandoliers

Post by Dathi »

Phill

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Post by Phil the Grips »

Cheers. I am currently resisting gettting a petronel (just yet...) so all this talk ain't helping :)
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Petronal

Post by Dathi »

The petronel is a bit odd. There's no statutory requirement to provide them but the Clergy, JP's and the like get stiffed to provide them. There's barely any references to their equipment, the only one I've found includes corslett, headpiece, sword and dagger and the petronal itself .


Acts of the Privy Council Vol. XXV March 11th 1596 pp 288.

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Post by Phil the Grips »

I do Reivers so it fits with them being a bit outmoded, liking light arms, horsebased and not very military conformist- and cos I just want one :)
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Horse

Post by Dathi »

I keep being tempted by the Light Horseman, curat, headpiece, sleeves of mail, stave, brace of pistols, sword and dagger... Not that light!

There is an interesting reference from Kent of buff hose and chamois leather breeches for a light Horseman in the 1590's

I'm picking up a curat based on a Graz example this weekend at Kelmarsh, add a headpiece, and gorget and I can do pike or halbard, get a wooden target and that's another type.

The swords are a little bit puzzling, there's references to close hilts, irish hilts and basquet hilts on turkie or turkey blades. Which has puzzled me. However I finally wondered if they meant blades similar to those fitted to the Schiavona type swords. I'm fairly sure that they're not really talking about rapiers as they seem quite happy to make the difference clear, with the odd reference to rapiers for shot armed troops

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Post by Phil the Grips »

"Turkish" or "Turcael" blades mean scimitar or curved type blades- definitely unusual, but then the early form of the Sinclair hilt was developing in the northern parts of the continent at that time, with its distinct curved broad blade so not unheard of.
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Swords

Post by Dathi »

That was what I wondered at first. But curved blades just don't appear in what little pictorial evidence there is. The Lant Roll shows mostly 2 ring hilts on straight blades, along with the Images of Ireland. The few woodcuts that show English troops show straight blades. The few paintings that show the social groups that the soldiers would have been drawn from show straight blades and I'm not aware of any curved blades in any collection with close hilts that are of English background.

So. It's a puzzler...

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swords

Post by Dathi »

Think I cracked it.

Books of rates for the custom duties for goods imported into the UK seem to have a habit of lumping Turkish or Venice or fine blades together.

I think it's the Hover syndrome, doesn't matter who makes it, you still call it a Hover.

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