Livery Colours

Historic questions, thoughts and other interesting stuff

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Grefin
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Livery Colours

Postby Grefin » Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:00 pm

[color=darkred]Does anyone know what the livery colours are for Henry Bouchier-Earl Of Essex.This is the one before 1485.



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Grymm
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Postby Grymm » Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:11 am

green and black with a gold/yellow knot
one source gives green and white.


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Postby Cat » Wed May 06, 2009 6:44 pm

Just for info The Tudors away strip is green and white (with a red dragon).
Green and black may be less confusing.


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Postby Hraefn » Wed May 06, 2009 10:44 pm

WARS OF THE ROSES: death dates as marked


Edward Neville, Lord Abergavenny [d.1476] - green and white
William Fitzalan, Earl of Arundel [d.1487] - red and white
John Touchet, Lord Audley [d.1490] - yellow and red
John, Viscount Beaumont [d.1460] - white
William, 7th Lord Berkeley [active until at least 1483] - red
John Bouchier, Lord Berners [d.1474] - yellow and green
Humphrey Stafford, Duke of Buckingham [d.1460] - black and red
(also Henry Stafford d. of Buckingham, d.1483).
Sir Thomas Burgh/Borough of Gainsborough [d.1496] - blue
George, Duke of Clarence [d.1478] - murrey and blue
Thomas, Lord Clifford [d.1455] - white
Brooke, Lord Cobham [Edward d. 1464, John d. 1515] - black and red
Sir Marmaduke Constable [d. 1518] - red
Sir John Conyers [d.1490?] - white
Sir Richard Croft [d.1509] - white and blue
Randolf/Ranulph Lord Dacre of Gilsland [d.1461] - four stripes barry yellow and blue
Sir Richard Fiennes, Lord Dacre of the South [d.1483] - white
Thomas Courtney, Earl of Devon [1st, d.1458, 2nd d.1461] - red
Digby family - blue
Thomas Grey, Marquis of Dorset [d.1501] - white and dark red [murrey]
(also known as 3rd Lord Grey, 8th Lord Ferrers, Earl of Huntingdon in 1471, Marquis of Dorset in 1475)
Edward, Earl of March/Edward IV [d.1483] - murrey and blue
Edward, Prince of Wales [d.1471] - red and black
Henry Bouchier, Earl of Essex [1st d.1483, 2nd d.1529] - black and green
Henry Holland, Duke of Exeter [d.1475] - white and red
William Neville, Lord Fauconberg, Earl of Kent [d.1463] - white and blue
Walter Devereaux, 7th Baron Ferrers [d.1485] - white and red
Sir Edward Grey, 2nd Lord Grey, 7th Lord Ferrers of Groby [d.1461] - green
Sir John Radcliffe, Lord Fitzwalter [d.1461] - blue
William Bourchier, Lord Fitzwaurin or Fitz-Warine [still active 1469] - white and red [?]
Henry Lord Grey of Codnor [d.1496] - red and green
Edmund, Lord Grey of Ruthin and Earl of Kent in 1465 [d.1490] - red
Sir James Harrington [d.after 1497] - black [?]
William, Lord Hastings [d.1483] - dark red [or purple] and blue
Henry VI [d.1471] - white and blue
Henry VII - white and green
William Herbert, Earl of Pembroke [d.1469] - blue and red
John Howard, Duke of Norfolk [d.1485] - red
Thomas Howard [d.1524] - red and white
Thomas Talbot, Viscount Lisle or L'Isle [d.1470] - blue
Robert, 3rd Lord Hungerford and Lord Molynes [d.1464] - red and green
Francis, Viscount Lovell [died after 1487?] - blue and yellow
Thomas Fitzalan, Lord Maltravers, 12th Earl of Arundel in 1487 [d.1524] - black
John Neville, Lord Montague, earl of Northumberland 1464-1470 [d.1471] - red and black
Walter Blount, Lord Mountjoy - blue
John Neville 2nd Earl of Westmoreland [d.1461] - black and red
John Mowbray, Duke of Norfolk [Ist d.1461, 2nd d.1476] - blue and red
Henry Percy, Earl of Northumberland [2nd earl d.1455, 3rd earl d.1461, 4th earl d.1489] - red and black
John De Vere, Earl of Oxford [Ist d. 1462, 2nd d. 1512] - orange or orange tawney
John Paston [d.1479] - red
Jasper Tudor, Earl of Pembroke [d.1495] - white and green
Edward Poynings [active in 1485] - red
Richard of Gloucester/Richard III [d.1485] - murrey and blue
Anthony Woodville, Earl Rivers and Lord Scales [d.1483] - green [but noted as blue and tawney at a tournament of 1478]
Richard Woodville, Earl Rivers [d.1491] - green
Thomas, Lord Roos [d.1464] - blue and yellow
Edmund, Earl of Rutland [d.1460] - murrey and blue
Richard Neville, Earl of Salisbury, 2nd Earl of Westmoreland, [d.1460] - red and black
John, Lord Scrope of Bolton [d. 1498] - white
John Talbot, 2nd Earl of Shrewsbury [1st d. 1460, 2nd d. 1473] - red and black
Henry Beaufort, Duke of Somerset [d.1464] - white and blue
Thomas, Lord Stanley later Earl of Derby [d.1504] - orange tawney and green
William Stanley [d.1495] - red
John De La Pole, Duke of Suffolk [d.1491] - blue and yellow
Humphrey Talbot [active until at least 1483] - black and white
Rhys Ap Thomas 'The Raven' [active until at least 1485] - white
Richard Tunstall [d.1491] - black and white [?]
Richard Neville, Earl of Warwick [d.1471] - red
Lionel, 6th Lord Welles [d.1461] - black and red?
John, Lord Wenlock [d.1471] - white
Henry Willoughby - blue
Robert, Lord Willoughby [d.1501] - red and white
Richard, Duke of York [d.1460]- blue and white
John, Lord Zouche [d.1526] - black and murrey [murrey and purple were often confused]


Town contingents and militias:
1455 Coventry - green and red
1461 Rye - red
1470 Canterbury - red

From Hobilar magazine.


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Postby Colin Middleton » Thu May 07, 2009 1:02 pm

Hraefn, thank you that's a very handy list. 8)

Unfortunately livery colours aren't that cut and dried. A lot of lords had different colours for different years and different purposes, etc. For example, that Howard Accounts states in the Inro that Howard's livery was Red and Blue. He appears to issue this to his sailors in the accounts. He also hands out lots of Crimson cloth (in 2 meter lenghts) to people who we presume to be retainers/household for John Mowbray. Then in the accounts in the 1480's , Howard is buying huge quantities of Red and White wools. A friend who's studdied the subject of Howard's livery beleives that he was issuing Black liveries and changed it to Blue when he became Duke of Norfolk. All that said, most 'normal' sources show his men wearing Red (the colour on his banner too)! How on earth do you sort this one out? :?

My personal theory is that the had 'Household' liveries which were changed to suite the choice of the lord and then kept 'Battle' liveries, which were handed out to those fighting for them ('and ordane them 500 jackets of my livery'), possibly on a 'locational' basis; i.e. If someone is Duke of York and Earl of Surrey they may have their York men in Blue and Murray and their Surrey men in Red and White. In which case, the list Hraefn has posted probably represents those colours. But this is just a theory.

Best wishes.


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Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Thu May 07, 2009 1:11 pm

I thought the Marquis of Dorset wore manly pink and white (or cerise and white).
Lots of people talk about murray and it seems to change tone and colour with every new conversation, like azure which was not a colour that I'm sure even existed.
No wonder badges were given away!


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Postby Colin Middleton » Fri May 08, 2009 12:42 pm

I thought that Azure meant Blue.


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Postby Ghost » Fri May 08, 2009 12:56 pm

It is


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Postby Artemisia » Fri May 08, 2009 7:44 pm

Thanks - I can see we will be spending a lot with Bernie the Bolt at the Oyster Fair



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Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Fri May 08, 2009 8:42 pm

But what kind of blue???
I mean where's a fella going to find a lass who'll help him with such things?


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Hraefn
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Postby Hraefn » Sat May 09, 2009 12:00 pm

The sorta blue they use in heraldry
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Postby Colin Middleton » Mon May 11, 2009 12:50 pm

A blue kind of blue. There seems to have been quite a relaxed attitude to what shade a colour is. I'd go for something bright, but I don't think that you need to be too exact. It's more important what status you want to determine how bight or deep the colour must be.


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Postby Dave Key » Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:18 am

Colin Middleton wrote:A blue kind of blue.


Absolutely ... Azure is a heraldic way of describing colours ... records for the actual livery cloth say 'blue'

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Postby craig1459 » Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:25 am

Marcus Woodhouse wrote:But what kind of blue???

I can provide you with a blue livery if you want one lol


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Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Wed Jun 24, 2009 4:06 pm

Thats grand of you omae. I have a lovely green and white one for you waitng at home as it happens.


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Postby lidimy » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:52 pm

Marcus Woodhouse wrote:Thats grand of you omae. I have a lovely green and white one for you waitng at home as it happens.


You tell him!!


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Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Wed Jun 24, 2009 7:45 pm

Ah I've said all this to wee craig before, you can always tell a rangers fan, but their heads are so big you can never tell them much.


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Bwayne
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Postby Bwayne » Wed Jul 08, 2009 8:55 am

Out of interest (not that much of an expert with the peroid), for where there are a mix of colours is there any rules on which goes on which side? I remember reading that some of the colours simulate metal does this dictate this....?

Or do we just not know?



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Postby gregory23b » Wed Jul 08, 2009 6:09 pm

Bwayne, the use of colours heraldically has rules, mostly adhered to, sometimes not, using colours in non-heraldic ways has no real rule system.

Livery coats are not heraldic as such, they might use colours and images from heraldic sources, so in theory can be designed any way they like.

As for metals:

Or - gold, or yellow if no metal leaf is used

Argent - silver - or white if no silver leaf is used.


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Postby Anthony of the MSS » Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:32 pm

Hi Hraefn,

Very handy list, can I ask where you got this? Secondly, there is an entry in there for Sir James Harrington which I'm very curious about. Is it the James Harrington of Wolfege/Wolfage who was knighted at the coronation of Henry VII? I'm involved with a local history society doing some research on him and would be grateful of any info you may have on the livery.

Thanks,

Anthony



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Postby Tuppence » Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:09 pm

strictly speaking, the heraldic colours (actually called tinctures, and in no particular order) are as follows (and shade isn't that important):

azure (blue)
gules (red)
purpure (purple)
sable (black)
vert (green)

then there are the metals:
or (gold, or yellow without actual gold)
argent (silver, or white without actual silver)

and the furs, eg vair and ermine.

And then you get 'proper' - which is anything that's natural coloured (ish) - eg an elephant proper would be grey (although where proper doesn't make it clear the colour can be put in the name - such as a black dog proper).


The names are from Norman French, and this is how heraldry worked originally, more or less (though more complicated).

Strictly speaking you couldn't put a colour on a colour, or a metal on a metal, but that was often ignored, especially later on as devices became more and more complicated, and everybody had to have a difference.




Then later on you get other colours, known as stains, like murray (a mulberry colour, or reddish purple, or pinkish red), sanguine (blood red), bleu celeste (sky blue - also sometimes known as ciel). There are lots of these, some used more than others, and some specific to area or country (eg, murray used most in England), but not often used in heraldry, (in theory), other than for livery.


And, again, strictly speaking, livery colours aren't heraldic.


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Postby Tuppence » Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:14 pm

oh, and some heraldic and livery colours went with the person, some with the family name, and some with the title.

so it'd be prefectly possible for one nobleman to have three or four different ones.


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Postby Ghost » Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:06 pm

anybody know what James Butler, earl of Ormond and Wiltshires's livery was ?


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Postby Tuppence » Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:36 pm

dates? will see if he's mentioned in any of the books we have.



heraldic and livery colours


incidentally, meant colours in the heraldic sense, meaning designs, rather than actually colours.


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Postby Ghost » Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:57 pm

Tuppence wrote:dates?



1461


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Postby Langley » Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:52 pm

When 1471 wanted to have new livery they sent some samples to the College of Arms. The Azure they picked out as correct was very bright blue indeed. Deep sky blue really (so the poets going on about the azure sky had it right). How did the college know? They still have sample books with unfaded original cloth samples. There tends to be a lot of dark blue and murray about these days. Not sure what started that off as most of the groups wearing it have ancestry traced back to groups with the same WC research folks behind them.



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Postby gregory23b » Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:29 pm

"Not sure what started that off..."

WC was Yorkist from 1988/89 when it dissolved the old household system, no more Lancies or Yorkies or Stanleys, merely Yorkists.


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