Pagans, Druids and Witches

Historic questions, thoughts and other interesting stuff

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
WorkMonkey
Posts: 396
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 1:00 pm
Location: Buuuuurmingum
Contact:

Postby WorkMonkey » Wed Jan 11, 2006 4:35 pm

Ah these heathen dogs, I expected no less than kitten eating!


WORKMONKEY: The Wilderness Years.
Image
Look at the monkey, funny monkey
Little red monkey, acting so fidgety

User avatar
Gyrthofhwicce
Posts: 186
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 5:11 pm
Location: Bedfordshire
Contact:

Postby Gyrthofhwicce » Wed Jan 11, 2006 4:39 pm

WorkMonkey wrote:Ah these heathen dogs, I expected no less than kitten eating!


All gods creatures Sir.


Bear Claw Traders, bringing you the finest in Finnish Reindeer skins and utility and banquet knives. AND NOW, lovely shiney helmets

www.bearclawtraders.co.uk

User avatar
EmanwelOfGwent
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2005 9:37 pm
Location: A very cold, dusty library

Postby EmanwelOfGwent » Wed Jan 11, 2006 4:43 pm

Gyrthofhwicce wrote:
My Arguement which you failed to pick up on, was the fact that you cant make flippent remarks about someones personal beliefs, and not understand that this can and will offend people.


is that what you did just here:

20, Catholic and Bored, should have realised the mixing process for the Am I bothered\know it all\superior than you cake.


I know a bored 20 year old Catholic and he's about as harmless and ease going as it gets.



User avatar
WorkMonkey
Posts: 396
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 1:00 pm
Location: Buuuuurmingum
Contact:

Postby WorkMonkey » Wed Jan 11, 2006 4:43 pm

Ah there's hope for you yet good sir, leave your gods and accept the one true god, join the light side.


WORKMONKEY: The Wilderness Years.

Image

Look at the monkey, funny monkey

Little red monkey, acting so fidgety

User avatar
Gyrthofhwicce
Posts: 186
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 5:11 pm
Location: Bedfordshire
Contact:

Postby Gyrthofhwicce » Wed Jan 11, 2006 4:48 pm

EmanwelOfGwent wrote:
Gyrthofhwicce wrote:
My Arguement which you failed to pick up on, was the fact that you cant make flippent remarks about someones personal beliefs, and not understand that this can and will offend people.


is that what you did just here:

20, Catholic and Bored, should have realised the mixing process for the Am I bothered\know it all\superior than you cake.


I know a bored 20 year old Catholic and he's about as harmless and ease going as it gets.


Yes, Exactly. hurts doesnt it. :cry:


Bear Claw Traders, bringing you the finest in Finnish Reindeer skins and utility and banquet knives. AND NOW, lovely shiney helmets



www.bearclawtraders.co.uk

User avatar
Gyrthofhwicce
Posts: 186
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 5:11 pm
Location: Bedfordshire
Contact:

Postby Gyrthofhwicce » Wed Jan 11, 2006 4:49 pm

WorkMonkey wrote:Ah there's hope for you yet good sir, leave your gods and accept the one true god, join the light side.


Never, your powers are weak old man.


Bear Claw Traders, bringing you the finest in Finnish Reindeer skins and utility and banquet knives. AND NOW, lovely shiney helmets



www.bearclawtraders.co.uk

User avatar
WorkMonkey
Posts: 396
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 1:00 pm
Location: Buuuuurmingum
Contact:

Postby WorkMonkey » Wed Jan 11, 2006 4:51 pm

Oh I see where this is heading...


WORKMONKEY: The Wilderness Years.

Image

Look at the monkey, funny monkey

Little red monkey, acting so fidgety

User avatar
Gyrthofhwicce
Posts: 186
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 5:11 pm
Location: Bedfordshire
Contact:

Postby Gyrthofhwicce » Wed Jan 11, 2006 4:54 pm

WorkMonkey wrote:Oh I see where this is heading...

Do you, can you give me a hint, cos i cant see whee it's going at all, but then mine eyes are blind through not having the love of the white christ. :wink:


Bear Claw Traders, bringing you the finest in Finnish Reindeer skins and utility and banquet knives. AND NOW, lovely shiney helmets



www.bearclawtraders.co.uk

User avatar
WorkMonkey
Posts: 396
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 1:00 pm
Location: Buuuuurmingum
Contact:

Postby WorkMonkey » Wed Jan 11, 2006 4:56 pm

It's turning into the obligitory Obi-Wan vs Darth Vader in Episode IV recital! that's what it's turning into!


WORKMONKEY: The Wilderness Years.

Image

Look at the monkey, funny monkey

Little red monkey, acting so fidgety

User avatar
Gyrthofhwicce
Posts: 186
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 5:11 pm
Location: Bedfordshire
Contact:

Postby Gyrthofhwicce » Wed Jan 11, 2006 5:03 pm

WorkMonkey wrote:It's turning into the obligitory Obi-Wan vs Darth Vader in Episode IV recital! that's what it's turning into!


Actually no, thats as far as my Star Wars quotes go, we can maybe change to another film if you want?? :oops: :wink:


Bear Claw Traders, bringing you the finest in Finnish Reindeer skins and utility and banquet knives. AND NOW, lovely shiney helmets



www.bearclawtraders.co.uk

User avatar
WorkMonkey
Posts: 396
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 1:00 pm
Location: Buuuuurmingum
Contact:

Postby WorkMonkey » Wed Jan 11, 2006 5:06 pm

I don'd mind, y'know..if you want to..then thats cool... :oops:


WORKMONKEY: The Wilderness Years.

Image

Look at the monkey, funny monkey

Little red monkey, acting so fidgety

User avatar
Gyrthofhwicce
Posts: 186
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 5:11 pm
Location: Bedfordshire
Contact:

Postby Gyrthofhwicce » Wed Jan 11, 2006 5:11 pm

WorkMonkey wrote:I don'd mind, y'know..if you want to..then thats cool... :oops:


No, lets get back to religion. Your god smells.


Bear Claw Traders, bringing you the finest in Finnish Reindeer skins and utility and banquet knives. AND NOW, lovely shiney helmets



www.bearclawtraders.co.uk

User avatar
WorkMonkey
Posts: 396
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 1:00 pm
Location: Buuuuurmingum
Contact:

Postby WorkMonkey » Wed Jan 11, 2006 5:13 pm

I dont have a god...


WORKMONKEY: The Wilderness Years.

Image

Look at the monkey, funny monkey

Little red monkey, acting so fidgety

User avatar
Gyrthofhwicce
Posts: 186
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 5:11 pm
Location: Bedfordshire
Contact:

Postby Gyrthofhwicce » Wed Jan 11, 2006 5:16 pm

WorkMonkey wrote:I dont have a god...


Then stop sticking up for the white christ then.


Bear Claw Traders, bringing you the finest in Finnish Reindeer skins and utility and banquet knives. AND NOW, lovely shiney helmets



www.bearclawtraders.co.uk

User avatar
WorkMonkey
Posts: 396
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 1:00 pm
Location: Buuuuurmingum
Contact:

Postby WorkMonkey » Wed Jan 11, 2006 5:19 pm

gotta stay in character.


WORKMONKEY: The Wilderness Years.

Image

Look at the monkey, funny monkey

Little red monkey, acting so fidgety

User avatar
Gyrthofhwicce
Posts: 186
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 5:11 pm
Location: Bedfordshire
Contact:

Postby Gyrthofhwicce » Wed Jan 11, 2006 5:22 pm

WorkMonkey wrote:gotta stay in character.


See, now the majority of the time, i play a good god fearing saxon, but i manage to leave it behind me. I kneel for my blessings along with everyone else at Hastings.

This is why i have done something i swore i would never do, become a viking for some shows, and not just any old viking but a Rus as well, Pagan and Swedish/Russian/Finnish depending on what you think :cry: :? :)


Bear Claw Traders, bringing you the finest in Finnish Reindeer skins and utility and banquet knives. AND NOW, lovely shiney helmets



www.bearclawtraders.co.uk

User avatar
gregory23b
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2923
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:46 pm
Location: Gyppeswyk, Suffolk

Postby gregory23b » Sat Jan 14, 2006 5:15 pm

"I think I've been cursed about 3 times, "

see the beard, yep.

I have met a whole range of 'pagans' I use the apostrophes in a non-ironic sense, in that it suffices as a description, who exhibit the range of sincerity that any other believers do, some are truly sincere and believe others call themselves pagan because it is trendy. There is nothing you can do about that, that is real life.

Now whether pagans are any more illogical than say Christians is a moot point because it is down to belief. The difference that I can see is that pagan beliefs are not codified to be rigidly adhered to but are a product of a gamut of social and cultural influences that are not mutually exclusive to the belief. The formalised codified religions/belief systems are by nature geared to a linear belief path, esp Judeo-Christian systems and are by nature insecure if doctrine is deviated from.

It would appear to me that people follow what they are drawn to, to what appeals to them in many ways, so I don't find the various pagan systems any more illogical on that basis. Logicality and beliefs are not always good bedfellows and not always necessary, in my opinion of course. I would go as far as to say I find it more logical to 'worship' (again a convenient term) the sun, the earth the water as at least they are physical things, rather than a creator-deity as such.

I respect those that have sincere convictions, it takes a lot of inner strength to do so, I do not respect charlatans or those who presume to tell me what is good for me or not, strangely pagans don't seem to do the latter. My wife is a catholic of firm conviction but she is modern realist, more a simpler view of God than the Vatican's, me, well I don't know yet as it happens, never baptised, don't pray, not a Christian.

As for religion not being discussed, well why not as long as people can back up their points or those defending them do not take hypothetical questions personally.

Please excuse the simplistic terminology, part ignorance part not wanting to put forward every possible meaning or group given that paganism et al are not all conveniently described. Although suggestions to correct them are welcome.

jorge


middle english dictionary

Isabela on G23b "...somehow more approachable in real life"

http://medievalcolours.blogspot.com

"I know my place." Alice the Huswyf

User avatar
Foxe
Post Centurion
Posts: 759
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2006 9:46 pm
Location: Defending Devon from French invasion
Contact:

Postby Foxe » Mon Jan 16, 2006 2:17 pm

The trouble with paganism IMHO is that its adherents fall into two broad categories. The first category I happen to like; they are the sensible people who are interested and excited by a religious belief which brings them close to the natural world around us; they regularly practice and worship; they accept that a large part of their belief is made up (I'm not going to get into the inspiration for the made up stuff, but there's no doubt that Gardner et el made up a huge amount of stuff and anyone who denies that is really kidding themself - and let's face facts, all religions were made up at some point); and most importantly of all they understand that paganism (be it wicca, neo-druidism, neo-odinism or what) is a religious belief system, not a "magickal" thing - some of them may practice magic, but it is not necessarily an integral part of their beliefs.

Then there's the other lot. One might think that they were all teenagers (and many of them are), but I can think of otherwise quite sensible adults who fall into this category, as well as some pretty dumb adults. Sadly, this second group make up the larger percentage of people describing themselves as "pagan", and it is they that give the movement a bad name. They become pagans for different reasons, but fashion and coolness are probably more common than genuine belief; they regularly take part in religious events, provided they fall on a weekend; they are convinced that "magick" and their religion are inextricably linked; they are insecure enough about their beliefs to think that they need to put a superfluous K on the end of the word magic so that people don't get them mixed up with Paul Daniels (who is a damn site more impressive anyway); they are generally the people who insist that Wicca is an ancient religion, and that modern "witches" have some connection with historical witches; and they're the people who go on for hours and hours about something they barely understand ther first principals of. I'm pretty certain that nobody in this second group knows they are a member of it - but for the rest of us they're easy to spot.

Paganism is not necessarily a bad thing, as religions go it's a fairly good one, and personally I can admire anyone who genuinely holds deep religious beliefs. 70% of "pagans" unfortunately are little more than wallies.

Should anyone wish to have a knock at my beliefs, I'm a pantheist. I believe that God can be found in all things, and that it doesn't matter what you call God because he/she is powerful and sensible enough to know when you're addressing them.


...and further this Informant saith not.

Foxe

'Don't be fooled by his general air of living in a skip'

http://www.etfox.co.uk

User avatar
madjon
Posts: 130
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 8:45 pm

Postby madjon » Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:40 pm

the use of language in debate, a heathen is a follower of the norse deities as i seem to recall, so damning all heathens are you saying that about the followers of odin thor freya etcetera or using it as an all encapsulating term?

as for the romans they would fall under the catch all term of pagan as i seem to recall they are, what with a large selection of gods/goddesses etc,

paganism isnt a completely made up idea there are many in scandinavia who are followers of ancient norse religion there are followers of many 'pagan' paths in parts of europe scandinavia and the russias who dont have a christian backgound so where is the problem in seeing it as valid that they follow a different set of ideas about the world?


the word pagan originating from a insulting term of country dweller/ backwards country people, and was used as a catch all term for anyone not christian so anyone not of jewish/christian background could in theory by a churchperson be referred to as pagan, not mentioning that someone who is outside of the church and a non believer could be referred to as a pagan,

having seperated out a few points of terminology and the two schools of thought of fluffy / those who follow a path they believe in, also at this point i may mention that under legislation currently in place 'slagging' off religous groups is an offence. information discussion and debate are fine but insults and language can be seen as offensive or inciteful and lead to people making complaints so remember to keep it as a discussion and not a slanging match. last thing anyone wants is trouble,

pagans in reenactment/living history, is it a connection in practice of association with the past and ancestors is it that pagans are looking at the past and trying to connect with it?



User avatar
madjon
Posts: 130
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 8:45 pm

Postby madjon » Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:49 pm

cut off end of last message, forgotten what i said, anyways paganism as a belief system is a wide area there are many publications available from academic resources, but the question i had was for reenactment the use of images of roman pagan images and ideas the ideas associated with the norse and the vikings the associations with the saxons etc what is the problem with people following what they believe? if its in a living history context or in a personal belief system about the interaction of their deities/the world around and thmselves/others whats the problem with that? there is a lot of speculation about the stitching of a pair of piddling socks which is seen as legitimate ground for argument and theres little agreement with much arguing and references to different sources does that mean that someone who views it differently is the right one historically? paganism is an umbrella term for many different and sometimes opposing views so is it a question of personal belief in particular or historical relation to personal belief?



User avatar
Rod Hull
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 12:31 pm

Postby Rod Hull » Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:50 pm

madjon wrote:information discussion and debate are fine but insults and language can be seen as offensive or inciteful and lead to people making complaints so remember to keep it as a discussion and not a slanging match.


Good point.

But who is it who decides what is offensive or inciteful? The more intolerant amongst us would find anything they don't totally agree with offensive. The more broadminded wouldn't find anything they gave a toss about.

Seems to me that someone has to decide what is offensive which kind of makes a mockery of free speech IMHO.



User avatar
madjon
Posts: 130
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 8:45 pm

Postby madjon » Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:55 pm

mr blair passed his law and the police follow up complaints , its a very vague terminology in the bill which causes more problems than it solves but something to be aware of in case of the odd one who crys foul.as far as i can tell its arbitrary and decided by the police,im sure most people can deal with anything here ,but there is always the odd one to watchout for who cant tell the difference between personal opinions in discussion and the violence the bill was supposed to deal with,



User avatar
arianwen
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:02 pm
Location: Cardiff, Wales

Postby arianwen » Tue Feb 07, 2006 7:17 pm

In its most basic sense you have fluffies and non fluffies. Non - fluffies are the largest group i believe - you just see fluffies more http://thevalley.ukpagan.com/ (hope that worked) is a good site and gives you a view of many different paths within the term paganism. you have druids, wiccans, witches, Vodou, celticism, people interested in egypt, heathens. It just depends on what you believe. I think pagans are involved in reenactment as it gives them a chance to show who they are and experience their religion/beliefs as they would have been - like norse/vikings.

i hope that made sense :?



User avatar
Cat
Post Centurion
Posts: 704
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:40 pm
Location: A Muddy Field Near Tewkesbury

Postby Cat » Fri Feb 10, 2006 7:47 pm

Ed- so if you see and can appreciate a creating but non anthropomorphic hand in everything, and you can't believe in a bloke with a white beard on a cloud judging souls then you're a pantheist?

b**ger! the last 5 years I've been calling myself an Agnostic/Atheist. In actual fact, I am Atheist with Pantheistic tendencies dependant on mood. Thanks. (No sarcasm intended!) I hate labels, but I equally hate woolly thinking and loose ends.

(I've tried being a Born Again Christian, and then a Pagan, then a Hedgewitch and all the time I couldn't believe, even though I really wanted to.)



guthrie
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2349
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:54 pm
Location: Polmont-Edinburgh

Postby guthrie » Fri Feb 10, 2006 7:55 pm

The problem with the labels is that most of them seem to have some reference to religion, and of course atheist is often taken these days to mean "Thinks all religions are junk". I'm still trying to work out what to call myself, who pays little attention to religion, yet doesnt blaspheme because, hey, it might just be disrespectful in some way.

Or in other words, my ideal conversation would go something like this:

"What religion are you?"
'Whats a religion?"



User avatar
WorkMonkey
Posts: 396
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 1:00 pm
Location: Buuuuurmingum
Contact:

Postby WorkMonkey » Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:02 pm

madjon wrote:having seperated out a few points of terminology and the two schools of thought of fluffy / those who follow a path they believe in, also at this point i may mention that under legislation currently in place 'slagging' off religous groups is an offence. information discussion and debate are fine but insults and language can be seen as offensive or inciteful and lead to people making complaints so remember to keep it as a discussion and not a slanging match. last thing anyone wants is trouble,


Does it need to be an "official" Religion? Is Paganism an "official" religon? theres so many varients are they all "official" if they're not official religions then how can it be religious discrimination?

Tbh I believe In the allmighty purple monkey God. He talks to me in my sleep and tells me his will.


WORKMONKEY: The Wilderness Years.

Image

Look at the monkey, funny monkey

Little red monkey, acting so fidgety

User avatar
Gyrthofhwicce
Posts: 186
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 5:11 pm
Location: Bedfordshire
Contact:

Postby Gyrthofhwicce » Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:30 pm

WorkMonkey wrote:Tbh I believe In the allmighty purple monkey God. He talks to me in my sleep and tells me his will.


So you beleive in the Monkey god, are you Buddhist then??? :wink:


Bear Claw Traders, bringing you the finest in Finnish Reindeer skins and utility and banquet knives. AND NOW, lovely shiney helmets



www.bearclawtraders.co.uk

User avatar
Gyrthofhwicce
Posts: 186
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 5:11 pm
Location: Bedfordshire
Contact:

Postby Gyrthofhwicce » Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:33 pm

Cat wrote:(I've tried being a Born Again Christian, and then a Pagan, then a Hedgewitch and all the time I couldn't believe, even though I really wanted to.)


Hi Cat,
the thing with being a hedgewitch is you dont really need to believe anything, It's about working with nature, and the things you find and see around you. I s'pse the nearest thing to beleiving in is old mother nature, the godess.


Bear Claw Traders, bringing you the finest in Finnish Reindeer skins and utility and banquet knives. AND NOW, lovely shiney helmets



www.bearclawtraders.co.uk

User avatar
Caius
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 10:19 pm
Location: On a forum where there isn't censorship.
Contact:

Postby Caius » Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:54 pm

All gone.


Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (Who watches the watchmen?)

User avatar
craig1459
Post Centurion
Posts: 646
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 7:06 am
Location: Derby
Contact:

Postby craig1459 » Sat Feb 11, 2006 12:42 pm

I don't believe in God but I do believe in "religion" in as much as a common creed helps bind a group together

I don't however discount the existence of a creator - defined as a positive actor who initiated life - because there is a certain logic and elegance to genetics. A god may exist but not necessarily God, Allah etc


die Behmen hinder iren bafosen ... stunden vest wie die mauren


Return to “General History”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests