Question for the archers among us

gregory23b · Post by **gregory23b** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 6:39 pm

nails.

Artist impressions are not always fantasy and I woulkd wonder why such a minor detail would be included, they had hobs on pattens and who know what the foreigners do with their footwear

Dave Key · Post by **Dave Key** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 11:49 pm

gregory23b wrote:Nice pics as always Karen.

Also, do the Schilling Chronicles not offer the possibility of the belt arrows slightly tied in as well? Some dim recollection scratches at me.

----

Jorge

Ref, the wicker baskets, where is the source for that? The bags seem right, again as per the Schilling Chronicles, where they show English arches with what appear to be bags, although they could be simplified cone shapes to show the actual shape of the arrows when in the belt, ie the sketch lines. I see wicker baskets on sale, but not been given a source for them, they make sense, but even so, any ideas?

There are references (e.g. Howard's Household Books) to "Arrow Girdels" i.e. belts specifically for arrows. In one of the few contemporary English Illustrations of archers arrows are shown tucked in the belt, and in at least on case in a small 'pouch' attached to the belt which is large enough to hold the heads, but not much else.

Also, I'm inclined to agree that too much emphasis is placed on the 'wicker' interior to these bags, many a moon ago when we wewre looking at this for the White Company we put it forward as a possible interpretation, however neither the Froissart illustrauions which show 'similar' bags, nor the C17th ? depiction of a 'early' spacer-bag as per Mary Rose have any wicker ...

What there is evidence for are large boxes for arrows (and bows), some of which actually survived on the Mary Rose and are also listed in accounts from the C15th.

There is a reference in the Howard's accounts to a quiver ... but from recollection it was "with a lock" which would suggest a box (or cask or similar) rather than the 'classic' Hollywood quiver etc.

Mouse,

Remember the above is very specifically for mid-late C15th England. Contemporary Italian paintings etc. do show quivers.

So in answer to your original questions ...
"Can anyone tell me:

* Is there a rough "basic" dimensions/shape for quivers?
* If so, does this change depending on period?"

No and Yes ... you need to be a little more precise as to what you are looking for ... when where and in what context?

Cheers
Dave

Bittersweet · Post by **Bittersweet** » Tue Sep 09, 2008 5:33 am

One of the problems with all these things is that there seems to be evidence or reference to show how both bows and arrows were stored/ transported (stowed on a boat such as Mary Rose) but less available to show how they were carried and used by individuals in battle and other situations.
Unfortunately we will never know just how accurate artists were either but it all makes for much more interesting debate and is part of the enjoyment of this hobby; trying to work these things out to the best of our ability.

gregory23b · Post by **gregory23b** » Tue Sep 09, 2008 5:16 pm

"but less available to show how they were carried and used by individuals in battle and other situations. "

Really?

The 15thc Froissart images show arrows being used in combat, some are placed in the ground, suggesting a static deployment. The Schilling Chronicles show arrows in belts, possibly with a covering, they are but two. Also, we know that spare ammunition was transported by cart, viz Ed IV expedition.

Also re the Mary Rose spacer discs, has anyone tried drawing a headed arrow out of one that is supposed to reflect the originals? If they are solely for storage of headed arrows then they limit the type of arrow they can hold if used as a quiver, if however they are for storage without heads, ie fletched until required then that is a different story. The reason I raise that is in the John Fastolf inventory in the Paston letters, there is a container load of crossbow heads, not by number but by volume, granted they could have simply been a set of spares or unused, but what if the heads are not always deployed until the time of need?

Bittersweet · Post by **Bittersweet** » Wed Sep 10, 2008 6:17 am

If you put heads on at time of need I would suggest that you wouldn't be shooting 12+ a minute.
If arrows stuck in the ground in battle situation, wouldn't the heads come off as you pulled them out of the ground (I don't think they had araldite)? After all the advantage of a 'looser' arrow head was that it would come off the shaft once inside a body and the shaft is pulled.

Out of interest, does anyone have any references/illustrations of !2th and t13th century archery in battle or skirmish?

Fillionous · Post by **Fillionous** » Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:38 am

My understanding of the use of the leather spacers / drawing arrows is that the fletchings and piles are both fitted and you draw the arrow by pulling the pile thus drawing the flexable fletching through the hole. The feather is smoothed by this action and springs back into shape as the arrow is loaded / shot. As long as the holes are not too tight on the shafts and the whipping is sound on the fletchings, it does not seem to affect the arrow in any way to be drawn in this fashion.

I have used arrows with type 16 heads in this way and found it to be perfectly fine for getting the arrows out of the 'quiver' at quite a speed.

I am not too sure what glues were used to afix piles to the shaft, I have heard mention of everything from a beeswax and resin gum / glue to various animal / fish glues. The MaryRose arrows have some kind of green / copper? based colouring which I have heard sugested is the remains of some kind of glue or prehaps a preservative applied to the arrows.

As glues do not show in pictures or survive in archology (sp) I am not sure this question can be answered...
But what ever glue was used it would prefrabally have a couple of charictoristics - be able to bond metal to wood, not be esspecally prone to damp (arrow in the ground / damp British climit) not be brittle (to deal with the various bumping of transport / action whilst in use) and prehaps a lowish melting point (for ease of use and detachment of the head once it is in the 'victim').

Just thoughts
BE bright,be bold
Fillionous

gregory23b · Post by **gregory23b** » Wed Sep 10, 2008 3:31 pm

"
If you put heads on at time of need I would suggest that you wouldn't be shooting 12+ a minute."

Where does it say that 12 arrows a minute are required? Oft quoted but never sourced.

Most battles were not chance encounters, they were planned and deployed, so preparation for the encounter was done, ie preparation of ammunition and weapons, even purchasing the weapons well in advance of a campaign. Certainly in the WOTR most campaigns were planned.

"If arrows stuck in the ground in battle situation, wouldn't the heads come off as you pulled them out of the ground"
"
A set of loose heads actually suggests storage until use, allowing (for example) different heads to be used as required rather than one sort then needing to change, I do not think it was a case of simply sticking them on with pressure, this is a hard one to do.

If the arrow heads are stuck on then they would not come out, as for glues, the medievals had a full range of glues, some colloids, some caseins and some resinous

"The MaryRose arrows have some kind of green / copper? based colouring which I have heard sugested is the remains of some kind of glue or prehaps a preservative applied to the arrows."

Copper acetate/verdigris, is an insecticide and also preserves the animal glue as well as making it toxic to insects.

"As glues do not show in pictures or survive in archology (sp) I am not sure this question can be answered... "

The Westminster Abbey arrow, presumed to be 16thc has glue remaining on the fletch end, it also has the indentations of the whipping, no feather remains, I hope that there has been some analysis of it, the glue looks reddish, possibly another additive for preservation, one notable Froissart picture (drawn in the 15thc) shows one side using arrows with green, the other with red.

Dave Key · Post by **Dave Key** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 12:27 am

With regard to headed vs unheaded arrows ....

In the list of 'ordnance' taken by John Sturgeon to France in 1475 we find ...

In shevys of arowes of ix ynches cccl [24*350= 8400 arrows]
In arowys of viij ynches mccccl [1450 arrows]
In arowys of vij ynches vij[m] ccccclx [7560 arrows]
In arowys unheded ccxxvij shef [227*24 = 5448 arrows]

Since unheaded arrows are listed separately then by inference the others are likely to have been headed ... 5448 vs 17410 ( 1 : 3 )

Also worth noting that the arrows are differentiated by fletching length ...not arrow or type of head. Indeed I can't think of any reference to 'types' of arrow head when arrows for war are referenced. A fact that doesn't really surprise me ... I really can't see an archer in a battle stuation carefully picking a head type, whilst differentiation by fletching would differentiate between arrows for long and shorter ranges. Sorry but I've always considered the displays people do of a range of arrow heads for different situations/armour being dubious in the extreme, yes different heads for target or hunting ... but for shooting en masse at a generalised mass of soldiers in a battle situation ... not really.

Cheers
Dave

Hraefn · Post by **Hraefn** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:57 pm

A Francs Archer

from this page http://pagesperso-orange.fr/herve.laine ... archer.htm
Found a couple of pictoral refs for 'quivers' but they are French.

gregory23b · Post by **gregory23b** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 6:42 pm

Hraefn, is that an original drawing or a drawing of an original?

Hraefn · Post by **Hraefn** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:21 pm

Not sure I don't read johnny foriegn....barely do English to be truthful.. If it is an original then it could be William May Captain of the Garde Ecossaise du Corps du Roi (end of Louis XI reign) found refs to Francs archers in 'Armies of the Middle Ages, volume 1' by Ian Heath published by the Wargames Research Group. Yeah I know it's hardly a primary source but it is a jumping off point, it has bits of basic info on organisation tactics blah blah blah 100yr War WoTR & Burgundian Wars 1300-1487 whilst idley flicking through it sat on the crapper and I noticed all the line drawing of Frenchie twangers had 'quivers' on their side and all the English are stuffed through belts soooo I tried to glean a little info from the text did an image search for 'Francs archer' et voilant!(or summat) The book line drawing has him holding his armet. Still mooching around for others.
Nice bib at the end lotsa stuff to go hunting for loike Sherbourne J.W. 'Indentured Retinues and English Expeditions to France, 1369-1380' English Historical Review LXXIX, 1964

Hraefn · Post by **Hraefn** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:22 pm

Note to self , learn to punctuate.

gregory23b · Post by **gregory23b** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 7:35 pm

thanksforthatatleastyouputspacesbetweenthewords

gregory23b · Post by **gregory23b** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 10:20 am

Just found another picture of an archer with arrows in his belt, from what I can see it looks like a further wrapping of a cord or thing in addition to the belt, but it is unclear, but it is very clear that it is from the waist and in the belt area and no quiver, he is also using what we would call a longbow.

Picture is The Story of Alexander the Great - Military Exploits and Fabulous Deeds.

Workshop of Pasquier Grenier, Tournai, circa 1459

Placed at the Palzzo Doria Pamphili, Rome.

Tapestry, wool, gold and silver thread, approx 13'11 3/8" X 28' 4 1/2"

A rather large piece, hence the detail in my book being a bit condensed.

Sadly, I can't find a pic online.

Teh tapestry is interesting for lots of reasons, it shows what looks like an arming doublet on the very same archer, he is wearing a 'fantasy/historic' upper armour and full legs.

Pictures of guns and other weapons, a lot of interesting stuff for the costume and weapons fan, not to mention those that study medieval interpretation of classical themes, which this is.

Flesh&Blood · Post by **Flesh&Blood** » Tue Oct 07, 2008 12:08 pm

I remember reading somewhere, dim and distant past, that arrows were transported in quantities known as sheafs or sheaves, containing 24 arrows. any provenance anyone knows of this? Also with regard to the heads on/off, when the commission went out, the fletcher provided the fletched shafts, the armourer/smith provided the heads, and in most cases as far as I know, the two artisans didn't work together, each provided his agreed number of items. Local sources for crossbow bolts down this neck of the wood had the quarrels being supplied being made of oak and fletched with goose feather, the quantity being 'boxes of x hundred', and the heads supplied different by the barrel, OK this is crossbow bolts, in the 13th C, but surely they wouldn't have changed the system of supply that much? Thoughts please?

Hobbitstomper · Post by **Hobbitstomper** » Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:04 pm

There are pictures of arrows in belts on the Mackijowski Bible and maybe on some of the 13th century apocalypses.

I think that you have to consider what they are using arrows for. If you are shooting Bambi’s mum and not travelling far you probably don’t need a quiver (3-4 arrows for a hunter/poacher).
If you are shooting in a battle from a stationary group of massed archers using provided arrows then you don’t need a quiver (100 arrows- how do you carry that lot).
If you are travelling a dozens miles a day, not living in a fixed place and living off shot game then a quiver would be useful (for a dozen arrows- like the copper age iceman).
If you want to drive to the target range without your arrows making holes in your upholstery or upsetting the sports centre receptionist then a quiver is a good idea.

Alan E · Post by **Alan E** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:01 pm

Flesh&Blood wrote:I remember reading somewhere, dim and distant past, that arrows were transported in quantities known as sheafs or sheaves, containing 24 arrows. any provenance anyone knows of this? Also with regard to the heads on/off, when the commission went out, the fletcher provided the fletched shafts, the armourer/smith provided the heads, and in most cases as far as I know, the two artisans didn't work together, each provided his agreed number of items. Local sources for crossbow bolts down this neck of the wood had the quarrels being supplied being made of oak and fletched with goose feather, the quantity being 'boxes of x hundred', and the heads supplied different by the barrel, OK this is crossbow bolts, in the 13th C, but surely they wouldn't have changed the system of supply that much? Thoughts please?

Dave Key wrote:With regard to headed vs unheaded arrows ....

In the list of 'ordnance' taken by John Sturgeon to France in 1475 we find ...

In shevys of arowes of ix ynches cccl [24*350= 8400 arrows]
In arowys of viij ynches mccccl [1450 arrows]
In arowys of vij ynches vij[m] ccccclx [7560 arrows]
In arowys unheded ccxxvij shef [227*24 = 5448 arrows]

[...etc...]

Flesh&Blood · Post by **Flesh&Blood** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:24 pm

Alan E wrote:
Flesh&Blood wrote:I remember reading somewhere, dim and distant past, that arrows were transported in quantities known as sheafs or sheaves, containing 24 arrows. any provenance anyone knows of this? Also with regard to the heads on/off, when the commission went out, the fletcher provided the fletched shafts, the armourer/smith provided the heads, and in most cases as far as I know, the two artisans didn't work together, each provided his agreed number of items. Local sources for crossbow bolts down this neck of the wood had the quarrels being supplied being made of oak and fletched with goose feather, the quantity being 'boxes of x hundred', and the heads supplied different by the barrel, OK this is crossbow bolts, in the 13th C, but surely they wouldn't have changed the system of supply that much? Thoughts please?

Dave Key wrote:With regard to headed vs unheaded arrows ....

In the list of 'ordnance' taken by John Sturgeon to France in 1475 we find ...

In shevys of arowes of ix ynches cccl [24*350= 8400 arrows]
In arowys of viij ynches mccccl [1450 arrows]
In arowys of vij ynches vij[m] ccccclx [7560 arrows]
In arowys unheded ccxxvij shef [227*24 = 5448 arrows]

[...etc...]

Yah, Thanks Alan, but it was somewhere else as well, quite prominant if I reccolect, but I just can't remember where

arrowmaker · Post by **arrowmaker** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 1:13 pm

Who ever put those pictures on page one is dead if I find him

. Mrs Fred has just watched going through this line like a idiot I opened it I now have two lumps on my head from the frying pan and a black eye :oops:YOU ARE DEAD ( but it was worth it)
Fred

Langley · Post by **Langley** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 1:47 pm

I tend to stick arrows in my belt for fast shooting but I also have a large wicker basket for things with large barbed heads - the illustration of the French Archer looks like it might be a wicker contraption if somewhat smaller. I have also seen several interpretations of the leather spacers including them used on their own just to keep the fletchings separated a bit in the supply waggon. I also use a linen bag affair with a spacer sewn in about 2/3 of the way up. I believe some spacers are found with and some without holes round the edge. I can certainly draw bodkin type heads from that with no problem but also, the bottom of the linen bag is not sewn up. It is simply held closed with a string and when in use the top is closed off with the drawstring so allowing you to withdraw the arrow from the pointy end. The fletchings suffer no harm when pulled through the spacer and in fact, sometimes it helps realign them after transport. Not sure how I would manage to put my big broadheads into it at all though! Don't like sticking arrows in the ground. I know one captain of archers who feels the same, loets the archers do it then orders, archers, 10 paces forward.... In short, there is no definitive answer here but I suspect that if it works it would have been used, possibly in specific circumstances. We are in danger of generalising and trying to find a single "correct" way.

arrowmaker · Post by **arrowmaker** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 4:01 pm

Langley wrote:I tend to stick arrows in my belt for fast shooting but I also have a large wicker basket for things with large barbed heads - the illustration of the French Archer looks like it might be a wicker contraption if somewhat smaller. I have also seen several interpretations of the leather spacers including them used on their own just to keep the fletchings separated a bit in the supply waggon. I also use a linen bag affair with a spacer sewn in about 2/3 of the way up. I believe some spacers are found with and some without holes round the edge. I can certainly draw bodkin type heads from that with no problem but also, the bottom of the linen bag is not sewn up. It is simply held closed with a string and when in use the top is closed off with the drawstring so allowing you to withdraw the arrow from the pointy end. The fletchings suffer no harm when pulled through the spacer and in fact, sometimes it helps realign them after transport. Not sure how I would manage to put my big broadheads into it at all though! Don't like sticking arrows in the ground. I know one captain of archers who feels the same, loets the archers do it then orders, archers, 10 paces forward.... In short, there is no definitive answer here but I suspect that if it works it would have been used, possibly in specific circumstances. We are in danger of generalising and trying to find a single "correct" way.

When I first started to shoot field archery most time I used to put 6 arrows in belt and heads into my back pocket those were the days I could not afford a quiver.It looks like there is nothing new.
Fred

gregory23b · Post by **gregory23b** » Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:05 am

If anyone has a copy of the Osprey Burgundian armies, there is a picture of a 15thc tapestry, probably commisioned by Charles the Loony (er Bold) and it has an archer with his arrrows in his belt.

glyndwr 50 · Post by **glyndwr 50** » Sun Jun 14, 2009 10:18 pm

The subject about quiver for arrows has been debated for many years .As has been stated earlier in this section.After 1066 the use of a quiver seems to be absent from that time onwards till around the 17th century.One theory is that because the english arrows were so long it made it rather awxward to draw from a back quiver ,as for a side quiver there is little or no evidence they were used.Arrow bags seem to be the norm ,or tucked into the waist belt,but as earlier stated ,arrows were stored in barrels or wicker made containers its not untill the 15th century that painting show cloth type bags.Its down to the film maker that the general concept has come about.As we all know the Mary Rose has given up a lot of unanswered secrets ,which we did not know about what type of arrows were used or even what the bows even looked like.The finding of the Mary Rose has unwittingly set a bench mark on the question of archery.Up till this time very little items conecteted with archery have survived .We have to rely on what was ritten down ,and what information that has been written is normally very late medieval.I find that it is generally excepted that some sort of bag was in use ,and these bags tend to vary in size and shape .Some are open at the top and have a tied bottom ,some have the tips upper most others have the tips down.Some even have an open top and bottom .One can't really say which is the right one to use for your period in reenactment.Its best to get an oppinion from your groups archer master to be on the safe side .That way at least you will have the same as the rest of the lads .If of course you find that its incorrect or someone comes up with info that give a better idea what quiver or container ( Bag ) you need you will have to go with what info is avalable us. Here is a little info that may be of interest,The word Quiver comes from the middle english Quivre which is from french origin circa 14 cent .

John Waller · Post by **John Waller** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 10:46 am

glyndwr 50 wrote:or even what the bows even looked like.

Sorry, but I don't understand this statement. Could you expand?

Simon_Diment · Post by **Simon_Diment** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 1:07 pm

glyndwr 50 wrote:The subject about quiver for arrows has been debated for many years .As has been stated earlier in this section.After 1066 the use of a quiver seems to be absent from that time onwards till around the 17th century.One theory is that because the english arrows were so long it made it rather awxward to draw from a back quiver ,as for a side quiver there is little or no evidence they were used.Arrow bags seem to be the norm ,or tucked into the waist belt,but as earlier stated ,arrows were stored in barrels or wicker made containers its not untill the 15th century that painting show cloth type bags.Its down to the film maker that the general concept has come about.As we all know the Mary Rose has given up a lot of unanswered secrets ,which we did not know about what type of arrows were used or even what the bows even looked like.The finding of the Mary Rose has unwittingly set a bench mark on the question of archery.Up till this time very little items conecteted with archery have survived .We have to rely on what was ritten down ,and what information that has been written is normally very late medieval.I find that it is generally excepted that some sort of bag was in use ,and these bags tend to vary in size and shape .Some are open at the top and have a tied bottom ,some have the tips upper most others have the tips down.Some even have an open top and bottom .One can't really say which is the right one to use for your period in reenactment.Its best to get an oppinion from your groups archer master to be on the safe side .That way at least you will have the same as the rest of the lads .If of course you find that its incorrect or someone comes up with info that give a better idea what quiver or container ( Bag ) you need you will have to go with what info is avalable us. Here is a little info that may be of interest,The word Quiver comes from the middle english Quivre which is from french origin circa 14 cent .

There are some rather sweeping statements in this paragraph - What are your sources for this posting? It just seems to have been copied from an article rather than written ad hoc.

Online OED

quiver2

• noun an archer’s portable case for arrows.

— ORIGIN Old French quiveir.

glyndwr 50 · Post by **glyndwr 50** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:04 am

Firstly forgive the late reply but I have been trying to locate the information for the last post .I did write this as I typed ,I did not copy it form a book .The main info came from many sources,the info on quivers came from THE ENGLISH LONGBOWMAN ,by Clive Bartlett.A very informative book .The second is THE MEDIEVAL ENGLISH LONGBOW by Robert E Kaiser MA. ( This Artical was first published in the journal of the Society of Archers Antiqaries 1980 ).In the artical it states that there are very few longbows which have survived ,in fact there are only five ,and they are Renaisance weapons ,the artical then goes on to say that there are no surviving long bows from the Medieval period .In the case of these five surviving long bows they have diffrences .To make my point about not sure what a medieval bow look like its quite simple ,there are none to compare with those that have survived .In 1836 or 1840 ( there seems to be a problem on what date its was ) eight warbows were recoverd by the Deane brothers all but two were sold at auction and the surviving two are to be found at the Tower of London Armouries .With no surviving examples of a medieval warbow its hard to say what they looked like ,and from what picture's or illustration evidence that survives they all look very diffrent .

glyndwr 50 · Post by **glyndwr 50** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 7:43 pm

The previous post may find an the answer to my statement of " Not knowing what a medieval bow looked like ,as none survive ". By readiong Brother Ranulf's reply in the Clothyard Thread .He has put his finding's in a really understanding way ,and explain's the point much better than I myself could ..

Death is Nature's way of telling you to slow down..

ASS3SSm3nt · Post by **ASS3SSm3nt** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:59 pm

Yes - I agree that quivers had largely disappeared until the re-introduction by Victorians. However, I believe that during most medieval battles (Azincourt being a prime example) the arrows were supplied as livery items (as were the bows) and were bundled in 50's, and stuck in the ground in front of the archer - the arrow, not the bows......

LivingHistory.co.uk

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