Question for the archers among us

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mouse
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Question for the archers among us

Postby mouse » Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:13 pm

Am playing with one or two things this end, which, combined with a convo at Tagi, has got me plotting an experiment.

Can anyone tell me:

* Is there a rough "basic" dimensions/shape for quivers?
* If so, does this change depending on period?


Thanks gang!



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Brother Ranulf
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Postby Brother Ranulf » Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:21 pm

Not sure you have posted this in the right section (General History?), and of course it very much depends which bit of the world you are interested in.

In England quivers seem to have (very strangely) disappeared completely soon after 1066 and don't really make much of a re-appearance until the Victorian renaissance of archery for gentlewomen.

The "ideal" quiver would completely cover the arrows within, so would need some kind of flap to open before withdrawing the arrows - native American quivers (upon which Hollywood based its Robin Hood quivers) tend to be slightly shorter than the arrows, with a reinforced bottom end to prevent the heads cutting through.


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Postby Dave B » Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:31 pm

Yup.

This section is for questions / help about the forum itself, this goes in general history.


PS. I agree with BR, although IIRC there is some evidence for use of something like quivers on ships, presumably because it's hard to stick the arrows in the ground when you are on a deck?


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Postby Jim » Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:31 pm

I'm sure I've seen c15th paintings of archers with their arrows shoved down their belts.

Somehow, I suspect quivers of some kind were used during the transportation of arrows but not actually on the field. Possibly these quivers were quite large (barrels / boxes?) as they may have been meant to hold communal stashes of arrows which got handed out to archers at the start of the battle? I'm not sure individual archers would have had their own quivers for personal arrow storage, but as ever I may be wrong.


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Postby mouse » Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:11 pm

ooops! damnit - thought was posting in the "help" section - idiot that i am!

thanks for all the info guys!



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Postby Fillionous » Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:48 pm

The only referances I can recall of British 'quivers' / arrow storage are leather spacers inside a cloth bag. The spacers are basically a disc of leather with variously 6,8,12,24 holes in it, these stop the fletchings getting damaged and the cloth bag, which in some pictures may be re-enforced in the base to stop the arrow piles cutting through or be hald shape wise with prehaps? a wicker basket covers the whole lenght of arrow to keep them dry for transit, has an opening at each end that can be drawn back to reveal the nocks/piles for shooting / removal of the arrows.
There are examples of the spacers from the Mary Rose.

The majority of archers are shown with arrows just tucked in thier belts or stuck in the ground by thier feet.

Other referances refure to arrows being transported in barrels (100 years war) posibbly with the piles in separate barrels to the fletched shafts, being assembled on the march / prior to battles at need.

If I get time I'll see if I can find more / specific referances...

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Postby Bittersweet » Tue Aug 19, 2008 5:27 am

It's possible that one of the archers you saw with a very posh leather quiver at Tintagel was our daughter. My husband made the quiver and the girl was using it for convenience during the archery competition rather than as 'authentic' kit.

But to open a can of worms :oops: I'd be surprised if skirmishing archers didn't have quivers of some sort other than the bag type. The bag and/or arrows shoved in the belt really are a pain if you're doing a roving shoot or skirmishing as opposed to 'battle formation' archery.


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Postby Brother Ranulf » Tue Aug 19, 2008 6:26 am

In describing Welsh kit, Gerald of Wales uses the expression "handfuls of arrows" - the Welsh were noted for their guerilla, skirmishing and ambush tactics and there is no evidence (pictorial, linguistic or archaeological) that they ever used quivers of any kind.

I recently pulled together all known 12th century depictions of archers (almost all huntsmen rather than military archers) in Anglo-Norman sources (in manuscripts, stone carvings, ivory, bone and antler carvings etc) and not one carries a quiver.

I would be interested to see any new evidence for quivers, but I suspect that they are simply "wishful thinking".


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Postby John Waller » Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:59 pm

Fillionous wrote: The spacers are basically a disc of leather with variously 6,8,12,24 holes in it


Do you have any evidence for spacers with 6,8 or 12 holes? The only ones I have seen have 24 (Mary Rose) or 25 (Museum of London).


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Postby Bittersweet » Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:18 pm

Brother Ranulf wrote:In describing Welsh kit, Gerald of Wales uses the expression "handfuls of arrows" - the Welsh were noted for their guerilla, skirmishing and ambush tactics and there is no evidence (pictorial, linguistic or archaeological) that they ever used quivers of any kind.

Are there pictoral references for Welsh skirmishers?

I recently pulled together all known 12th century depictions of archers (almost all huntsmen rather than military archers) in Anglo-Norman sources (in manuscripts, stone carvings, ivory, bone and antler carvings etc) and not one carries a quiver.

Have you by any chance done the same for 13th and early 14th too as they're more my time of interest?

I would be interested to see any new evidence for quivers, but I suspect that they are simply "wishful thinking".


Sadly, you're probably right :roll:


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Postby Brother Ranulf » Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:40 pm

There are a very few depictions of Welsh archers, but they are mostly later medieval - a famous manuscript illustration and very few carvings in churches, with Norman influence.

Sorry, I can't help with 13th or 14th century stuff - you are dealing with a rabid twelfth centuryist (no such word, but you know what mean!) :?


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Postby Bittersweet » Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:27 am

Thanks anyway Ranulf.

Hope the discussion's helped Mouse though.


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Postby Hraefn » Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:40 am

A lightly armed skirmisher




Image

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Postby Bittersweet » Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:59 am

Chilly :shock:


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Postby The Methley Archer » Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:04 pm

I need one of those :D but don't tell the missus :oops:


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Postby Dave B » Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:40 pm

Where on earth did that pic come from?


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Postby Phil the Grips » Thu Aug 21, 2008 7:36 pm

Googlesearch "Medieval archer" with safety off or look here
http://www.fashionworks.org/Lorena.html (NSFW)


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Postby lucy the tudor » Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:37 pm

Dear Goodness, feed the woman up a bit, she'll never survive the winter :shock:
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Postby guthrie » Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:50 pm

She's a little bit on the artifical side, methinks.
I keep trying to work out what the castle is in the background though. It looks rather Scottish.



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Postby The Methley Archer » Fri Aug 22, 2008 2:49 pm

This is a public apology to my beloved wife for my inapropriate comment in my post above. :oops:


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Postby Dave B » Fri Aug 22, 2008 3:31 pm

Your voice sounds a bit high, are you OK?


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Postby The Methley Archer » Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:59 pm

So it would be when your wife knows were the weapons are kept :shock:


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Karen Larsdatter
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Re: Question for the archers among us

Postby Karen Larsdatter » Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:25 pm

There's a few quivers & such at http://larsdatter.com/archers.htm -- can't remember for sure whether any (other than the Mary Rose arrow-bag) were specifically English.



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Postby Jim » Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:47 am

The Osprey book on the English Archer has a lot of pics of quivers of all types, many of which are photos of original c15th paintings.


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Postby gregory23b » Wed Sep 03, 2008 6:04 pm

Nice pics as always Karen. ;-)

A lot are 'foreign' ie, they are of a foreign or historical (or both) context, hence the recurve bow and arrow quiver, they were used, but not as such by say, English, they would not conform to the requirements.

"I'd be surprised if skirmishing archers didn't have quivers of some sort other than the bag type."

A 3 foot arrow is not the easiest thing to draw from a quiver, certainly a back quiver is not that convenient, an English arrow is particularly long in comparison. It would seem that many of our battles were somewhat static until the formations advanced on each other.

Also, do the Schilling Chronicles not offer the possibility of the belt arrows slightly tied in as well? Some dim recollection scratches at me.

----

Ref, the wicker baskets, where is the source for that? The bags seem right, again as per the Schilling Chronicles, where they show English arches with what appear to be bags, although they could be simplified cone shapes to show the actual shape of the arrows when in the belt, ie the sketch lines. I see wicker baskets on sale, but not been given a source for them, they make sense, but even so, any ideas?


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Postby gregory23b » Wed Sep 03, 2008 6:06 pm

But more interesting still:

http://tarvos.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server ... 001209.JPG

per Karen's link, check out the shoe soles, top left...


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Postby Bittersweet » Thu Sep 04, 2008 5:16 am

Running spikes :shock: ??


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Postby chrisanson » Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:31 am

hobnails



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Postby Jim » Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:54 am

Micro-rocket boosters.


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Postby Bittersweet » Fri Sep 05, 2008 5:22 am

chrisanson wrote:hobnails


I thought so too but they looked so pointed....artists impression perhaps?


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