How to improve battles?

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WorkMonkey
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Post by WorkMonkey »

I wonder if this is the same Edwin who was booted off the tha engliscan gesithas forums.
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Post by Caius »

May I suggest that the phrase `Ignore it and it will go away' may be apt here...?
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Post by Guest »

Edwin, your arrogance, and rudeness are extra ordinary. This is a place for reasoned and sensible discussion and even when people sometimes cross into rudeness; the people here have the common decency to apologise when they say something that offends people. This is obviously something you believe is beneath you. This is the second thread that I have been interested in reading that you have hijacked with your high handed I know better than you attitude and I do find it offensive, how ever this is just my opinion.

I am sure that your offensive comments on the Black Magic thread sail very close to the AUP policy that Cal has set and the ones here are not much better, and I am more than prepared to make a complaint if you continue; as you do offend me.

You have been asked politely on the board to be a little bit more sensative to other people but you have seen fit not to do so, please think about the consequences of this attitude.

Alixx

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Post by Guest »

Anonymous wrote:Edwin, your arrogance, and rudeness are extra ordinary. This is a place for reasoned and sensible discussion and even when people sometimes cross into rudeness; the people here have the common decency to apologise when they say something that offends people. This is obviously something you believe is beneath you. This is the second thread that I have been interested in reading that you have hijacked with your high handed I know better than you attitude and I do find it offensive, how ever this is just my opinion.

I am sure that your offensive comments on the Black Magic thread sail very close to the AUP policy that Cal has set and the ones here are not much better, and I am more than prepared to make a complaint if you continue; as you do offend me.

You have been asked politely on the board to be a little bit more sensative to other people but you have seen fit not to do so, please think about the consequences of this attitude.

Alixx
Regarding battle improvement, what remarks or rather what untrue remarks have I made? Certainly I have called noone troll or dweeb or used any of the other insulting remarks that have been used to me. In what way do I offend you Alixx apart from replying in kind to other people's posts. Please be specific?

Are you all such precious flowers that you can't take anything that might be construed as criticism or departure from the party line that the public are gasping for re-enactments and any wheezing "warrior" is good enough to give a passable performance and that geting legless in the beer tent is a good preparation for the show the next day.

Funnily enough I care about the future of re-enactment which might be limited if doesn't look to its audience.

Edwin

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Post by gregory23b »

"Are you all such precious flowers that you can't take anything that might be construed as criticism or departure from the party line that the public are gasping for re-enactments and any wheezing "warrior" is good enough to give a passable performance and that geting legless in the beer tent is a good preparation for the show the next day."

I do not see those comments here in this thread.

Not sure if you have read it, but we have touched on how battles look, I think there is a fair bit of honesty about the deficiencies, I do not see any defence of the things you are talking about.

Just to recap on some of the issues:
battle planning - scripting and making it interesting
safety issues over realism - where do we draw the line?
Archery - seems to have undergone a watering down, but hopefully improving

So, in principle you will find that much of what has been touched upon is close to your view, now with that in mind, what suggestions do you have to improve things?
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Post by zauberdachs »

Hey there Edwin. I haven't been reading the Black Magic thread so don't know what has gone on there, however from reading this thread I would like to offer you the following advice.

You see this point you made:
Edwin wrote: The point is that audiences don't owe you anything for the effort you put in. They are pure consumers and if the product isn't good enough will go elsewhere. So, if you are putting on what should appear a professional performance than it would be a good idea if the performers were match fit.
Granted there must be compromise in that most of us have other jobs to do but not drinking alcohol before a battle should bve an absolute rule as it is in some societies and why shouldn't prospective warriors do a little exercise beforehand to get reasonably able to stand up for the duration of the battle?
This is interesting, constructive and straight to the point.

While this however:
Edwin wrote: Please free to deconstruct the above and tell me what is in it to irritate a lot of people? Unless re-enactment is unique amongst all current activities in being exempt from critical examination.
is an example what people are getting offended about.

So perhaps you could seperate out the two and just post the first and shout the second "gangsta style" at the screen to vent your frustration when you perceive other people as being rude to you. I do and it works out best. A lot of the rudeness on here is the result of ill thought out remarks and rushed replies, it is therefore not worth responding to with more rudeness but a polite PM and a request for clarification.
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Post by Alan_F »

Anonymous wrote:
Regarding battle improvement, what remarks or rather what untrue remarks have I made? Certainly I have called noone troll or dweeb or used any of the other insulting remarks that have been used to me. In what way do I offend you Alixx apart from replying in kind to other people's posts. Please be specific?
Edwin, you are unable to grasp the basics here: You came onto this forum and insulted people. As a result of that, people do not take whatever you have to say seriously, instead we see it as another insult.

Something that is proven when you say things like this:
Are you all such precious flowers that you can't take anything that might be construed as criticism or departure from the party line that the public are gasping for re-enactments and any wheezing "warrior" is good enough to give a passable performance and that geting legless in the beer tent is a good preparation for the show the next day.
You insult people rather than even attempt to put forward a valid argument.

And to take your points:

There is no 'party line' here: Few on this board are in the same groups.

I can't think of one person here who is a "Wheezing warrio" type, maybe that's you.

If people want to get lefless in the beer tent after the event, then that's fine by me. Teetotaller I may be, but I have no problem with that. If you honestly think that each evening after an event we must sit around debating what to do for the next day and not go out and enjoy ourselves, then you are in the wrong hobby. Meetings like this do take place, however, they do not take up the whole of someone's evening.

Oh and BTW, what group are you in? As you obviously such an elitist, if would be nice to know.
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Post by Nigel »

Firdst off thanks Alan cheque is in the post don't tell folks I ahve a reputation as a nasty person to protect.

[quote="Edwin"]E: Black humour is two words which one should I know the definition of?


N:There was something about a shovel threat as well on another discussion I think. Yes another joke you pedantic little dweeb.

E:Pedantic and dweeb are similar in meaning so that is tautological. Little is incorrect as I am 6foot and 17 stone (yes I am one of the fat fighters as well)

This si precisely the psuedo intelectual crap we can do without. If I want to argue the points of ther English language then I'll go home and do it with my mother who does it for a living.


N:You are now starting to annoy me . For the above reason.



N:As for you never heard of you before so dont know your pedigree would you care to enlighten us.

E: None of your business but have been around re-enactment for about 14ish years, last year did work for Time Team and English Heritage, I lecture on the Dark Ages and have been consulted on ancient boat construction.

Ok years which groups ? Time team big wow did 4 then stopped getting interested as their treatement of people had gone from excellent a 3 day booze up with Robin to crap.

N:Or maybe you are so smugly satisfied with your own contribution to re-enactment that you can see no room for improvement. Not true as many will tell yoiu.



N:Why dont you organise something instead of lurking and sniping.

E:Lurking is being on a forum but not posting so again you use a word incorrectly.

E: I have noticed other posts on this thread indicating that some things I have said bear thinking about so no universal condemnation then.


Edwin iam goin to be blunt there is nothing wrong with challenging the norm I do it every day in work and that is exactly how the hobby has grwon people have decided they want to do things a certain way and gone and done it.

Through your ppedantry and rudeness you have in my opinion crossed the boundry of what is acceptable on this forum.

You are probabaly the one person here I dont want to ever actually meet because quite simply you would bore me.And yes thats important

I do this to put on a good show and socialise with my friends I'll leave you in your group of probably 1 to tread the path you chose but I suspect not on here for long
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Post by Guest »

You asked about my experience to which I gave an truthful reply, not boasting just the facts and you chose to use that as a starter for more abuse.

In discussion with others on this forum the concensus seems to be that it is best to ignore personal attacks and abuse. So I shall and leave it to your Mother to educate you in correct English usage. As for meeting you, I don't remember evincing a desire to but if I did I would try and grin and bear it.

Care now to discuss the points I raised about "how to improve battles"?

Edwin

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Post by tonw »

Edwin wrote: N:There was something about a shovel threat as well on another discussion I think. Yes another joke you pedantic little dweeb.

E:Pedantic and dweeb are similar in meaning so that is tautological. Little is incorrect as I am 6foot and 17 stone (yes I am one of the fat fighters as well)

You're still a little Dweeb (I'm using dweeb here because what I'm actually thinging is far worse and should not be uttered)

and the reference to being pedantic is not the regarding the narrowminded book learning

But the compete analness of focussing on the trival things.
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Post by Nigel »

I think Edwin should read Tom's signature because thats exactly what he is doing.

He comes accross as a pseudo intelectual pedantic nitpicking little sad individual who I dont actuallt want to discuss anything with.

My real feelings if expressed here would probabaly get me banned so I wont

Apart from to say this stay away from large red headed people with red kite shields

As I have no interest in what you think
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Post by Alan_F »

Anonymous wrote:You asked about my experience to which I gave an truthful reply, not boasting just the facts and you chose to use that as a starter for more abuse.
Edwin, it's a little late for you too start being sensitive about what other people say to you. If you can't take it, don't give it.
In discussion with others on this forum the concensus seems to be that it is best to ignore personal attacks and abuse. So I shall and leave it to your Mother to educate you in correct English usage. As for meeting you, I don't remember evincing a desire to but if I did I would try and grin and bear it.
Would that involve ignoring the personal attacks and abuse that you give to other people but then start whining about when you get it in return?

As for meeting Nigel - he would be the one grinning and bearing it - you have yet to show any social skills. You have shown that you like to show off your command of the language. You don't show anything like respect for others.
Care now to discuss the points I raised about "how to improve battles"?
It's actually already been done, however, I refuse to discuss anything with someone (in a thread I started) who's as arrogant as you.
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Post by Gyrthofhwicce »

WorkMonkey wrote:I wonder if this is the same Edwin who was booted off the tha engliscan gesithas forums.

I have a suspicion that it is. :wink:
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Post by Gyrthofhwicce »

Can I make a suggestion, In that we just ignore whatever Edwin writes, and continue with the various threads as if he was 'Nithing'
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Post by DomT »

I find it quite annoying actualy. Just enough serious content thats it's a pity we're going to have to ignore him because of the rest of the attitude.

It's sad to see valid opinions wasted becuase someone cant keep civil tongue in their head.
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Post by Gyrthofhwicce »

DomT wrote:I find it quite annoying actualy. Just enough serious content thats it's a pity we're going to have to ignore him because of the rest of the attitude.

It's sad to see valid opinions wasted becuase someone cant keep civil tongue in their head.
I totally agree Dom, If it wasnt for the attitude and the inability to see other points of view, he is actually making some good points worth debating. But how can you when you get attacked for disagreeing.
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Post by PaulMurphy »

In case you all haven't noticed, the first posts from Edwin came from a logged-in account.

The rest came from "Guest" access, so could have been anyone. While I can't defend the attitude in those posts, I can remind you that it could all be a wind-up by some little stirrer somewhere. Perhaps Edwin could post from his own account to confirm that they are indeed his words?

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Post by zauberdachs »

Can we get back on topic please? If anyone has anything to say to Edwin or to other people about Edwin, please can we do it via PM's or add more to the already very long thread concerning moderators/behaviour because it taken over this otherwise very interesting thread :)

I'm thinking if it is s**t stirring we shouldn't pander to it allowing the thread to be de-railed and if it is innocent then we should communicate about it privately off the thread :)
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Post by Edwin »

Have replied by PM Paul 'cos I mustn't stir things here.

Edwin

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Post by Edwin »

zauberdachs wrote:Can we get back on topic please?
Love to, is it possibel to discuss the effectiveness etc of the "commanders' meetings" which do seem to have room for improvement.

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Post by DomT »

Old, old, old ground and gripes.

Depends on what periods your talking about.

A proper o-Group seems the answer IMHO. Possibly a bit heirarchical for us Medieval Anarachists but having a few senior leaders around and then having them control sub units along with good marshalling seems a better idea than the current 'arrangements'
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Post by Nigel »

Edwin you are a non person so i suggest going away

In reply to Dom

I would agree with you But would point out us early medievalists can do it and we are possibly more anarchic than you.
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Post by Gyrthofhwicce »

In the Vike, we have unit commanders meetings on the 1st day, where we walk the battlefield and discuss the written script. Any problems are usually brought up then. We also have a de-brief of all unit commanders after the 1st days main battle to discuss any problems.

The scripts are also sent out a couple of weeks before the show so all unit commanders can read them and question anything before hand, so that we are not changing the script as we march on to do battle.

we can normally work from this to change anything that didnt work, or to disucss any unforseen script problems.

Now i'm not saying that this solves all problems and as anyone who has seen a vike show will tell you, the scripts still goes wrong on a number of occasions. But the script can only be as good as the units following them.
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Post by guthrie »

And we all know about groups not following orders on the field. So, as usual, i comes down to a combination of the marshals, pressure from the organisers and other groups to stay in line, and move when your told to.

But certainly, before and after battle compulsory commanders meetings are the way to go, as well as making sure that each group has its own commander who they will respond to.

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Post by Alan_F »

guthrie wrote:And we all know about groups not following orders on the field. So, as usual, i comes down to a combination of the marshals, pressure from the organisers and other groups to stay in line, and move when your told to.

But certainly, before and after battle compulsory commanders meetings are the way to go, as well as making sure that each group has its own commander who they will respond to.
Groups not following the script and buggering things up is a particular bugbear of mine. I can see how mistakes can be made once or twice, but when it becomes a regular thing with the same people, then what I suggest is that particular is told not to return to the event.
The scripts are also sent out a couple of weeks before the show so all unit commanders can read them and question anything before hand, so that we are not changing the script as we march on to do battle.
I think that's a good direction to go. That way everyone can see what they have to do and it also means that any problems can be sorted in advance.
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Post by EmanwelOfGwent »

As an ordinary combatant who's never seen the inside of a commander's meeting, I think circulating the script in advance would be great. Then I'd know what we were supposed to be doing, and wouldn't stand around at the muster point waiting to find out what side my lot are on, or most embarrasing of all standing in the middle of the battlefield while the army commanders and marshals try to decide whether we were fighting up and down the field or across the field... :roll:
On the other hand I've quite enjoyed battles where I wasn't really aware of a script beyond the usual three-clash-then-die thing, but where the commanders made some attempt at using tactics.
It'd be nice to know how much discretion there is within the script as well so that unit leaders know how much they can do without interfering with the script.

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Post by DomT »

A lot of the problems occur in the more 'free' periods'.

This applies to Medieval in general. WotR can be more organised but only when its a MSS or FED gig rather than one where some of their member groups are attending. However both in early and late medieval outside these type of shows it all gets a bit less organised. (This is IMHO, I've mostly been to SW gigs with the odd foray to the midlands or Wales. I havent done a lot of SE gigs for example although I hear the MSS run a tight ship)
There tend to be a LOT of small groups rather than a few big blocks. Commanders tend not to relate scripts to rank and file. Commanders tend not to control their blocks too well and you get a lot of skirmishers breaking from their blocks who have NOT A CLUE as to plot. Some small unit commanders dont bother going to the Commanders Meeting.
I have NEVER seen or heard of a 'after-action' meeting, except as a result of an accident, and I was OC of one of the larger WotR combat units for a few years (120 combatents+horse+artillery+archers at one Tewkers)for a number of years. I will say that on day #2 of a show we did normally go over events of the day before but thats not the same thing is it?

Dark Age gigs have a more centralissed command set-up and are more organised from my experience both from days gone by when I was Regia and more recently when I did a stint in the Vike.
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Post by Gyrthofhwicce »

I think that the way we script and run battles in the vike works because we vary rarely have other societys with us. and if we do it is usually soemone like Conquest who are used to the way we do things.

I beleive that the problem in Medieval stems from a large group of different societys all at one show. (not slating that, just think thats were the communication breaks down)

In the Vike we know all the other commanders and are used to working with them. Each unit is tructured so that there are effectivley 3 commanders per unit, Unit Leader, Sub Leader and Standard bearer. All should know the script and should keep an aeye on whats happening. However only the Unit leader should give the orders, with the Sub leader re-iterating them.

Both sides also has a Battle captain in overall charge of that side and the units on that side.
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Post by DomT »

Whereas a larger Medieval battle might have 30 commanders per side.

There are many major pluses to the fragmented nature of medieval re-enactment. For a start a lot of people believe that the mixture of larger and smaller 'households' more acurately represents the way troops were raised back then....
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Post by Alan_F »

DomT wrote:Whereas a larger Medieval battle might have 30 commanders per side.

There are many major pluses to the fragmented nature of medieval re-enactment. For a start a lot of people believe that the mixture of larger and smaller 'households' more acurately represents the way troops were raised back then....
But at the same time I can see Gyrth's point and I have to say I agree.

In order for each group to know what is and isn't acceptable, why not have guidelines published in advance and sent out to each group, or have them posted on a website where everyone can see them? That way, it's not being left to the commander's meeting for someone to say that "X, Y and Z are not allowed on the field".
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