Women off the Battlefield?

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craig1459
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Women off the Battlefield?

Postby craig1459 » Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:07 pm

This is a detail from Van Eyck's The Crucifixion c1430
Isn't that a woman tooled up? :shock:
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die Behmen hinder iren bafosen ... stunden vest wie die mauren

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Postby Thomas Hayman » Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:32 pm

Right, women can go on the battlefield!

http://www.wga.hu/art/u/uccello/6various/5dragon1.jpg

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Postby lidimy » Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:35 pm

Had to study that picture to death in English :(

http://homepage.mac.com/mseffie/assignm ... cello.html


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Postby Thomas Hayman » Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:38 pm

There are worse things to be doing than looking at Ucello paintings in school.



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Postby lidimy » Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:40 pm

It was rather the poem :?


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Postby guthrie » Sat Feb 24, 2007 11:13 pm

Where? I don't see a woman.



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Postby craig1459 » Sat Feb 24, 2007 11:16 pm

I asked the question


die Behmen hinder iren bafosen ... stunden vest wie die mauren

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Postby guthrie » Sat Feb 24, 2007 11:21 pm

But you didn't give an answer either! Theres at least two or three people in that picture. Which one do you mean? And what are your reasons?



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Postby Phil the Grips » Sun Feb 25, 2007 12:18 am

I don't see a tooled up woman at all.

I see a "European" stood next to an "Oriental"- wearing a turban and curvy sword which is painting shorthand for "foreigner"- but no woman.


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Postby gregory23b » Sun Feb 25, 2007 12:56 am

Craig, you must have been out with some strange 'women' (your lovely missus excepted of course).

The crucifixion was done in the forn parts, forners depicted in turbans, women forners depicted as women, like mary magdalene, mary, all the same forners as the crucifiers as it happens...

You can see this in lots of religious works beyond the crucifixion, martyrdoms were mostly done in forn parts, Memling's Ursula is another where the forners are turbanned up, with a mixture of non-forners. Often the only way to distinguish the protagonists, colour/race was not one of them as it happens, as we might in the more precise days think as visible. Moors or Africans were depicted as such, not always in forn clothing either.

A very common theme/code in religious art.

Unless you mean the dame in the bottom right? but then it is not a battlefield is it? it is a public execution - context lad.

If being present at a place of conflict conferred warrior status then all those women who were attacked in their own homes become elevated - as would anyone in fact, we know that is not what we mean. Point being, not all situations with military are battles.

Anyway Craig, you are in danger of starting another thread on restricted topic no. 9876Alpha/qxd/forbiddenzone/controversy-marker 572WOTBF

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Postby WorkMonkey » Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:27 am

I don't think women should be allowed on battlefields except as water bearers or medics *breathes*

The storm is coming.


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Postby Fluffster » Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:48 am

PMSL at work monkey...

But he has a point. It a case of women wanting to get more. We got the battlefield they got the kitchen, but oh no that wasn't good enough :lol:

The sound of Fluff leaving the topic to Iron Maidens 'Run to the hills'

:lol:


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Postby Cat » Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:11 pm

Nah, if we were medics you'd be in soooooo much trubble, youth.
And next time we meet bloody say hello or god help me I will tickle you.
And you Fluff, but you gen'rally say hello so you're probably safe.


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Postby Fluffster » Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:54 pm

Thankyou Cat :D Safeish... :lol:


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Postby WorkMonkey » Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:53 am

Cat wrote:Nah, if we were medics you'd be in soooooo much trubble, youth.
And next time we meet bloody say hello or god help me I will tickle you.


When did we meet?


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Postby craig1459 » Mon Feb 26, 2007 5:27 am

gregory23b wrote:Craig, you must have been out with some strange 'women' (your lovely missus excepted of course).

The crucifixion was done in the forn parts, forners depicted in turbans, women forners depicted as women, like mary magdalene, mary, all the same forners as the crucifiers as it happens...

You can see this in lots of religious works beyond the crucifixion, martyrdoms were mostly done in forn parts, Memling's Ursula is another where the forners are turbanned up, with a mixture of non-forners. Often the only way to distinguish the protagonists, colour/race was not one of them as it happens, as we might in the more precise days think as visible. Moors or Africans were depicted as such, not always in forn clothing either.

A very common theme/code in religious art.

Thanks Jorge
That's what I was trying to draw out - the representation. The figure in the pink to me at face value looks feminine. The pose, the long blonde pig tail. I knew it probably wasn't.


die Behmen hinder iren bafosen ... stunden vest wie die mauren

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Postby gregory23b » Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:18 am

You saying all forners are girly men?

Boy am I so staying out of this one, Oh Craig.

<seriously - fair question though> :D


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Postby Fluffster » Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:19 pm

Girly men you say...

Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you the French! :lol: :lol: :lol:


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Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Mon Feb 26, 2007 2:23 pm

Would that be the same French who won the 100 years war or the ones who conquored most of Europe in the 19th century or the ones who invaded and defeated the Saxons in 1066?


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Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Mon Feb 26, 2007 2:23 pm

Not that it bothers me, I'm irish.


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Postby Fluffster » Mon Feb 26, 2007 2:33 pm

No the ones who sell onions and run away a lot :lol:

The ones who beat the saxons, do we count the Normans as French, or is it like the Brittany bit not being French.

And the 19c lot, didn't they end up getting a kicking :lol:

Ok I take it back the French are not girls, well the french girls are girls...


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Postby Sir Fletcher Phelps » Mon Feb 26, 2007 4:44 pm

Marcus Woodhouse wrote:Would that be the same French who won the 100 years war or the ones who conquored most of Europe in the 19th century or the ones who invaded and defeated the Saxons in 1066?


I thought the Dukedom of Normandy was set up by the Vikings, not the French....which makes them Scando-tramps, not cheese eating surrendor monkeys! :twisted:


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Postby Sir Fletcher Phelps » Mon Feb 26, 2007 4:45 pm

Marcus Woodhouse wrote: I'm irish.


You have my every sympathy - should I pack a potato for next time we meet? :lol:


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Postby gregory23b » Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:28 pm

"Would that be the same French who won the 100 years war"

I bet they didn't call that then. I would say a lot of the wars were English victories, except the later ones where they lost it all to those garlic munchers, with help from the Irish I reckon. :D


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Postby KezT » Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:20 pm

There are various documentary evidence of women fighting in battle. Most notably when defending their (husbands) lands in seige situations, and there are a couple of pictures I have seen of women waving crossbows/swords.

I believe there are descriptions of women on the battlefield by Petrach, and the order of the garter had women in it by virtue of their skill in arms.

There are loads of anecdotal and unevidenced stories of women dressing as men & fighting/tourneying, but the best pictures of women at war are mostly now said to be Joan of Arc. I wonder how many of them were painted as her originally?



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Postby gregory23b » Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:23 pm

"There are various documentary evidence of women fighting in battle. "

But not many in reality. The ones that are documented are either:

highly unusual - hence their mention

or in specific circumstances, eg sieges.

Also, as with any era, what happens in one place is not an indicator of it happening everywhere.

"and there are a couple of pictures I have seen of women waving crossbows/swords."

Yep and bows, however what is seldom listed is the actual context of the pics, in many cases the pic is seen in isolation, so a picture of a well dressed woman using a longbow is seen as evidence, but then when the actual subject is revealed it is in fact Diana the Huntress in 15thc dress.

That is not exclusive to this tricky subject by any means, it is a general principle that most pictures used as references rarely state the actual context, leading to much mytholigising and dodgy hypotheses. Pictures only have limited value and they are notoriously misleading, after all they are impressions and edited commentaries and rarely snap shots of real life. A prime example is the relative absence of jacks in military pics, there are a very few so if you were to make a numerical assessment based on their presence in pics alone you would say that very few men wore them, when in fact there is mucvh more documentary evidence showing a wide spread use of them, far in excess of the images.


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Postby nev » Tue Apr 10, 2007 4:20 pm

wasn't one of the most widely read treatise on war in the late 15th century written by a woman (and a french woman at that).....*runs off to find the reference*......Le Livre des faiz darmes by Christine de Pisan (translated into English by William Caxton under the title The book of fayttes of armes and of chyvalrye)


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Postby Billman » Tue Apr 10, 2007 4:52 pm

http://www.stgeorges-windsor.org/histor ... garter.asp

From the first the Order with its twenty-six so-called Companions was internationally constituted and this led to a distinction in its membership between Knights Subject, who were subjects of the English Crown, and Stranger Knights. Women were also associated with the Order in the Middle Ages and issued with its robes, although they were not counted as Companions. Such association ceased in the reign of Henry VII (1485-1509) but was revived in 1901, when King Edward VII appointed Queen Alexandra a Lady of the Order of the Garter. The first woman to be appointed a full Companion of the Order was Lavinia, Duchess of Norfolk, in 1990.



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Re: Women off the Battlefield?

Postby Nigel » Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:16 pm

craig1459 wrote:This is a detail from Van Eyck's The Crucifixion c1430
Isn't that a woman tooled up? :shock:
Image


Nope its a bloke


There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

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Postby craig1459 » Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:30 pm

I do like the kit of the bloke on the left


die Behmen hinder iren bafosen ... stunden vest wie die mauren


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