Mid 14th Cent Man at Arms German Influence

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Felix
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Mid 14th Cent Man at Arms German Influence

Post by Felix »

Hello dear LH friends, I am new to this board seeking for some information on a Kit I would like to work on in the next years.

My major interest is arms and armour of the medieval era. Mostly on the collecting and martial arts area.

My swords are from Albion, a Crecy longsword and a Yeoman single hander together with a buckler.

Here are my ideas for the armour:

I would like to start with a Gambeson kind of thing, with a collar long arms and a skirt instead of slits in front and back, thichkness is not too much as it will be worn beneath other layers of armour, but also used alone in martial arts sparing. The design will be vertically quilted lines, what about fastening, I thought of laces in the back?

Second the real armour. The Idea is a haubergon and a bascinet (detachable clap visor) with aventail, splinted legs with knee cops, or these http://www.bestarmour.com/detailsparts/nohy61.html ? hourglass gauntlets.

The body defence could be a CoP, do you know a good provider with reasonable priced designs? What do you think of this armour http://www.bestarmour.com/details/zbroje71.html

Now I found some interesting looking arm defences, would these be possible:
http://www.bestarmour.com/detailsparts/ ... 23%20a.jpg

http://www.bestarmour.com/detailsparts/ ... 23%20c.jpg

Any ideas and comments are appreciated, especially on sources where to get the proper armour (I am from Germany so transatlantic vendors are out of range).

As for the mail and bascinet I was thinking of GDFB, is there possibly an alternative for the bascinet as the klappvisier seems to be too close to the face causing presure and damage to the nose.

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Post by lidimy »

guten tag -
ich kann nicht dir helfen, aber wilkommen.... hier sind wir ein bisschen komisch, aber...


*prepares for onslaught of grammatical mistakes*

lidi :D
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Post by Sophia »

Wilkommen Felix.

So komisch sind wir eigentlich nicht, es ist aber ein Sicherheit das wir total verrueckt sind!

That said, you will find lots of help here with arms and armour. Also with clothes - check the Costumes section for this.

Which group are you with and where are you based in Germany?

Sophia :D
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Post by guthrie »

Hang on, whaat makes you call convinced that he is German, apart from the linking to a Czeck armourer?

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Post by Sophia »

We were only trying to be polite. :D

I understood him to be German as he said "I am from Germany" rather than "I am based in Germany". The grammatical construction suggests German mother-tongue to me (German phrase would be Ich komme aus Deutschland). This is only my translators head speaking - this is the sort of phraseology I would watch for when revising a document as it can be ambiguous as a translation into English. It is also a perfect example of why very few people genuinely reach Mother-tongue standard in a foreign language.

Apologies to all for the linguistics digression.

Sophia

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Post by lidimy »

'So komisch sind wir eigentlich nicht'

i disagree, we are all pretty strange sophia :D

unless its a complete mis application of the word?

lidi :D
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Post by guthrie »

OOPs, so he is, I didnt read all that well down at the bottom of the post.

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Felix
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Post by Felix »

Hello and thank you for the nice welcome.

Yes, I am from Germany and I am also situated in Germany, though I am not based in Germany, as I am not with any military forces. :wink:

Strange would be possibly better translated with "seltsam", as "komisch" would be more like comical or weird. But this issue doesn´t matter.

Back to the topic. I am from Hanover, but I am just taking lessons in European Martial Arts and not taking part in a LH group. The interes in arms and armour of the medieval era has started in childhood and grown over the years. I have tried to get contact to groups every half decade from my "grown up" (after school) time on, but didn´t find anyone, where to learn the use of medieval European weapons from the MA point of view. I always were into the armor, buying some helmet, doing some maille and so on. But now with having the possibility to train my skills in sword fencing, it´s sword and buckler at the moment, but longsword is to come, I am trying to get a proper suit of armour. The Gambeson will be in the working soon I hope, then a bascinet with riveted aventail shoul follow, etc. So your knowledgabele advice is very welcome.

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Transitional armour circa 1350AD

Post by Stuart Quayle »

Hi Felix

I have an interest in Transitional armour of and around the mid 14th century and may be able to provide you with a few general options for your proposed kit:

Helm: Klappvisor bascinet with aventail is a good choice for 1350AD, the visor does not necessarily have to be that flat and sit close to the face and nose, but can be made bulbous, as simple bulbous visored bascinets are in use from around 1310AD onwards.

However the fashion at this time appears to be for an open face/visorless bascinet with maille aventail, maybe a fluted dome to the helmet, sometimes you see a nasal bascinet, the breteche or nasal guard being attached to the lower edge of the face opening of the maille aventail and hooked up to the brow of the bascinet.

The type of gambeson you describe sounds good, a maille haubergon to sit over the gambeson and then a coat of plates - ala Battle of Wisby 1361AD to lie over the maille. Finally a long surcoat, but cut short at the front to allow for ease of movement, is the genral fashion at 1350AD. The pictures of the Best Armour COP looks ideal, as lamellar coats of plate were found amoungst the graves finds at Wisby, Gotland and are thought to have been recycled from an earlier age and pressed into use.

The simple gutter type arms with the besagews at armpit and elbow look perfect, as are the Best Armour leg pics which you send, although there are a few variations which you may wish to consider;

At around 1350AD you see three distinct types of leg defences;

1. maille chausses (legs) with gamboissed leather thigh guards and knees;
2. leather thighs and shins with splinted metal strip re-enforcing and simple 'soupcan' poulyns/knees;
3. same as 2, but with broad, vertical, metal schynbald strips being strapped to the front of the leather thighs and shins.

Also the forearm defences could be 'splinted' leather instead of a simple gutter vambrace.

Finally the gauntlets. I do not recollect seeing many illustrations of houglass gauntlets so early on, why not go for a Wisby gauntlet, having the sectional metal plates to protect the back of the hand and fingers, and the long splinted leather cuff. Definitely in use at 1361AD.

Stuart

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Felix
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Post by Felix »

Thank you for the input.

I got an answer from bestarmour, they designed armes and legs together for the same kit, so I think I will go with these.

What would be the approptiate garment to wear below the leg armour, chausses are out of my prize range when deciding for the plate. Perhaps thinnly padded hose?

Do you know an alternative to GDFB for a klappvisier bascinet?

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Makers of Klappvisor bascinets.

Post by Stuart Quayle »

Hi Felix

The thinly padded hose underneath the plate legs sounds like a good idea :)

There is an armourer in Poland called Thorkil who makes really lovely Klappvisor bascinets, here is a link to his website: http://thorkil.ovh.org/indexang.htm

He is currently making a copy of Sir John d'Aberon's fluted domed, early style (1340AD) bascinet for me and I'm sure he would be pleased to make you a custom klappvisor.

Lewis Moore and his brother Clay in the USA make some sweet klappvisor bascinet's also. They trade under the title - Knight's Armoury.

Good luck in your quest.

Stuart

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Post by Felix »

Hello again, my ideas have improved very slightly as I ordered my clothing and a helmet based on the wallace A69 houndskull bascinet.

Then I will pad it properly and put on a padded aventail plus a mail aiventail of solid and wedge rivetted rings.
So I will go more to northern italian style.

Next there should be the gauntlets where I would like some brainstorming, these would be my ideas:
1) http://www.armorymarek.com/katalog/glov ... 17-160.jpg
2) http://www.armorymarek.com/katalog/glov ... 18-240.jpg (without brass)
3) see attachment

Perhaps I should go with articulated forearmdefenses in churburg style and cuisses with knees. As for the body armour I am not totally sure yet what would fit best. The churburg segmeted breast is a little too often seen perhaps?
Attachments
DSCN7838.jpg

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Post by nix »

i tend to ware long leather riding boots pulled all the way up, acts as padding and stops chaffing also its free armour!
im like a bad case of genital warts.
im an irritable c?@t ,
that keeps on coming back,
but i grow on you

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Felix
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Post by Felix »

Now long after some research some bad parts, some wait, I finally got some parts from my suppliers.

Here it is:
Perpunto:
Image

Gauntlets:
Image
Image
Image

Spaulders:
Image

Bascine, a mail aventail is in the making, although the padding alone is a good protection:
Image

Here are some pictures without my softkit in the legs
Image
Image
Image

Please give some comments, hints, critique.
More parts are to come this year.

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Late 14th century kit.

Post by Stuart Quayle »

Hi Felix

Bravo Sir! your kit looks really good. Defintely an Italian influence the armour 8)

The bascinet with visor is a lovely piece, the visor has been well shaped and the padded camail is a nice touch, it will support the mail nicely when it's ready. May I enquire who made the helmet for you please? Also, is the helm a raised piece or welded? and what gauge steel?

Nice one piece Italian shoulders, not from Age of Armour per chance?

The demi-gauntlets are lovely, nice and simple but the re-inforced fingers set them off nicely. Made by the same armourer who did your helm possibly?

Your arming jacket is very nice also, removeable lower sleeves. The padded aketon with plate gauntlets and helm, but no arm defence works well and looks good.

All of the kit goes very nicely together and you have chosen a nice combination of pieces, as previously stated all very Italian in influence.

What are you going for in relation to leg protection?

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Post by Felix »

Hello Stuart, thank you for your kind words

Helmet and gauntlets are from the same maker it´s Jacek (smith) and Marcin (padding and gloves) from Poland. The shoulder pieces are from William Hurt (Age of Armour) from the USA, I fell in love with these the first time I saw them and with the acutal $ : € exchange rate it is quite a good price.

The helmet was welded, although Jacek does raising too, it was too expensive for me. The visor is from one piece with a seem on the lower side of the nose. As the helmet was delivered with the padding in it I couldn´t check wether it was made from halfes or from on sheet with a seem.
The helmet is 2mm steel and was based on the Wallace A69 Bascinet and especially the visor turned out nicely and very close to the original. Dimensions beek to neck are as with the original, but the helmet bottom to top is 4 cm higher. The weight together with the camail I am modifying to fit at the moment ist about 6.75kg. So it is in the range of originals but on the heavier side.
The gauntlets are based on the pieces from Churburg armoury (S18), the fingers have small plates on the inside and there is a layer of wool between the gauntlets and the hand sewn gloves.

The Perpunto basically is from Matuls and was uniformly coloured at first, but because the arms were messed up (too short and too tight) I gave it to a friend, she is tailor, and she put in gussets below the upper arm, taken from the pieces of the lower arm to have the colour matching. The lower arms were then re-designed and with lesser padding (only 2 layers, compared to 4-6 before). The neck was added too. But the lower arms are not removeable.

Legs will be a later addition and will be designed as pieces from Churburg armoury, but I am not exactly sure at the moment.

First are pieces I already ordered. Arms from Jacek in Churburg style, a Breastplate with fauld as seen on the Pistoia altar piece and a rivetted haubergeon. A scabbard for my Albion Fiore longsword and a Basilardo dagger from Tods Stuff.

Arms and legs could be similar to the design of Churburg S18, the arms are close to number S10.
Attachments
258B.JPG

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14th century kit.

Post by Stuart Quayle »

Thanks Felix, some great information there. The Pistoia breastplate is a classy looking choice.

Look forwards to seeing the rest when completed.

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Zachos
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Post by Zachos »

Looking good mate.

I love seeing more high medieval armour.
Slowly realizing just how far is still to go.

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Post by Felix »

Hello together,

after having some nice discussion about my improving kit and some helpful hints by some nice PMs I found that I would need a more open faced helmet too. Some recommended an early Italian Barbuta, some a Kattlehat. Because I can take of the visor completely the difference to a Barbuta wouldn´t be so big I think. Together with my appreciation for Kattlehats I would like to give this type of helmet a try. Now it is up to the design, what would be a well suited helmet for 1390-1410 that would still give an Italian appearance. Do you have ideas where to look?

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Felix
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Italian Kettlehat

Post by Felix »

Found a line drawing´that is similar to a helmet in Ospreys Italian Militiman, though the interpretation of the latter shows a longer Nasal, what do you think? Would this be an appropriate helmet?
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Eisenhut ital. Martyrdom St. Catherine, Padua.jpg
Eisenhut ital. Martyrdom St. Catherine, Padua.jpg (2.81 KiB) Viewed 9548 times

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Kettlehats.

Post by Stuart Quayle »

Hi Felix

That is a pretty unusual style of kettlehat you have found, although very similar to the ones shown in the 'Master of the Trebon Altarpiece' 1380c in the Czech republic (images attached).

I would say that this style of kettlehat would work for an Italian influenced kit, but purely as a lowly infantryman's helmet, as opposed to the knightly class of soldier. Also, and it is only my 'two pence worth' to me, it is more a Germanic or Bohemian style of helm than pure Italian, but southern german and italian helms would cross over in usage quite alot I imagine.

If it was my choice, I would go instead for a nice open-faced Barbutt with a medial ridge (pic attached) pure Italian knightly style! 8)

regards
Stuart
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Master of the Trebon Altarpiece helms 1380c.jpg
Barbutt.jpg

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Felix
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Post by Felix »

Thanks Stuart.

Funny thing bestarmour has the to Kettlehats you showed and I was wondering why they used the long Nasal, while the pictures I have show a shorter version. My line drwaing is from wall painting by Altichiero di Zevio a northern italian painter whos was very active in the end of the 14th century.

I will think this thing over, the Wallace collection has a nice open faced early Barbuta too. See the picture attached (taken from the online collection at their website), they call it a Bascinet, but it already shows some Barbuta features, but not the central ridge.
Attachments
eMuseumPlus.jpg

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Bascinet/Barbutt

Post by Stuart Quayle »

Hi Felix

Many thanks for the artist information, I must look up some of his other work.

Wow! doesn't that bascinet have a very Italianate barbutt style to it. It would make a very unique helm style for you if you chose to go with it.

Do you know, another good option for you would be to go for a nice klappvisor bascinet, another south German/Italian cross-over style. Just a thought.

Hee hee, personally I like the open-faced barbutt style best. :lol:

regards
Stuart

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Felix
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Post by Felix »

The more I think about it the more I tend to the Bascinet/Barbuta cross over thing. The example from the Wallace collection has those features that seem to allow a visor attachmenct, but what kind of visor would go with this helmet, because it goes down to the neck very far and is flaring out at the lower end. Obviously the whole setup must have featured an aiventail. Then there these paired holes aroung the face opening, what eas this for? The helmet is dated around 1380-1410, so it would be on spot.

What is your example of the ridged Barbuta from?

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bascinet/barbuta

Post by Stuart Quayle »

Hi Felix

Yes, that is an interesting question "what type of visor would the bascinet/barbuta you featured have had?" Leave it with me and I'll try and find out.

The ridged top, open-faced Barbuta I posted a drawing of came from 'Medieval Costume Armour & Weapons' by Eduard Wagner. However, their illustration was done from a photo on page 94 of George Cameron Stone's Glossary of the Construction, Decoration and Use of Arms & Armour throughout all ages.

To cut a long story short, the barbuta comes from the collection of Dr. Bashford Dean and is Italian heritage, an almost identical helm resides in the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York and again is thought to be of Italian extraction.

From what I remember the center ridges start low in the early 15th century and become higher and more pronounced as you reach the middle of the 15th century.

regards
Stuart

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Felix
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Post by Felix »

Have a look at this, it is from 1380 and a work of Altichiero, it shows Kettlehats with and without cutouts and Nasal and those Basinet/Barbauta helmets on infantry soldiers with Brigantines.
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Altichero1.jpg

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Post by Thomas Hayman »

Not entirely positive where this is located but by the looks of the display cards and backgrounds (i know, i'm an uber geek) it is the Frazier museum, USA....
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318872963_0080139770.jpg
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Felix
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Post by Felix »

Is the helmet from 1480, or doesn´t the sign belong to this helmet?

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Zachos
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Post by Zachos »

I love that barbutta/bascinet. I think my next helmet will be that one!

Maybe the small holes are for attaching the padding or something?
Slowly realizing just how far is still to go.

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Felix
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Post by Felix »

Hello Zachos, indeed I think so too. I have seen some other views, there is one line of holes directly parallel to the vervelles and then those paired holes around the face opening.

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