Lanark 2006

Yourselves, events, parties, costumes...

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Montsegur
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Lanark 2006

Postby Montsegur » Mon Aug 21, 2006 11:32 pm

Lanark 2006 - I'll have to wade through quite a few to get the best, so more follows.


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Postby Montsegur » Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:26 pm

Lets try again - file size was too big and me too tired to do last night.
Attachments
the accused.jpg
the comdemned man.....
campfire.jpg
john hamilton 3rd in archery.jpg


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Postby Montsegur » Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:41 pm

more lanark. Will post more later too
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DDs.jpg
shall I.jpg


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Postby tonw » Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:28 pm

I'm goping to get flak for this but what is the point in DDS?

Wearing a fencing mask and only a shirt?

It looks wrong and it looks BAD!

could have been done to look so much better with an authentic helm

the rest look good though


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Ian Macintyre
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Postby Ian Macintyre » Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:16 pm

Hello.

I think the problem is you do not understand the context in which the picture was taken. It was a picture of the freeplay at the end of a demonstration not the battle itself.

In order.

The point of the DDS is to study, teach and promote the study of historical use of the sword.

Blosfecten, i.e. fencing in a shirt was an utterly typical activity. glance at i.33, talhoffer, or any other illustrated manuscript and this will demonstrate this. As the demo was in this aspect of swordsmanship I see no issue whatsoever with doing this.

We use masks in training and in our demos for the following 2 reasons. Safety. Authenticity. Safety is obvious. Period helms such as kettle hats provide too little protection to the face.

Authenticity because they allow the use of historical techniques that open faced helms do not. Namely thrusts and cuts to the head and face. A very short look at period treatise show clearly that these constitute the second most targetted area after the hands.

So in effect I beleive using a different helm or no helm at al (which would be the most accurate) would actually lead to a less authentic demonstration on our part. The clothing of the era is not the point of our demo. Tournee did an excellent job of that. Our demonstration was of the combat training and practice of the time. To demonstrate freeplay without being able to strike to the head would have given a false impession of swordplay.

We make it very clear in the accompanying commentary on our demonstrations that the masks are not period and our reasons for wearing them. We only do so for about 3-4 mins usually in a half hour period. I am comfortable with this and I must say every event organiser that we have worked with has also apparantly been so as we have never been asked to take them out of our demo.


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Phil the Grips
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Postby Phil the Grips » Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:21 pm

The DDS is NOT a livinghistory or reenactment group but a modern society focussing on historic swordplay- the only thing we ever profess to be authentic is our swordplay- we use whatever euipment allows use to stick to that ethic as safley as possible.

CoDDS is a branch of that society that does reenactment and when we participate in renactment activities (ie the battle or LH site) then we stay to kit standards as deemed by the lead society and use reenactment fighting styles. Ther eis no way that we woul duse a fencing mask in the battle or any other context outside the demo where it woul dbe glaringly wrong.

For our deomos (and this looks like a picture of the demo- or maybe a bit of "afterhours practice" knowing how keen RottenCad is) we do unarmoured combat and this requires head blows and thrusts to face-fencing masks have proven to us for over a decade to be the most effective tool for the job.

We make it very,very clear that fencing masks are not authentic but are necessary if we are to be accurate in our portrayal of historical sword use.

To put a helmet into the equation would give a mixed message that armoured fighting and unarmoured fighting are the same thing when they are very different beasts indeed-especially as they limit vision to a level that would make unarmoured fighting impractical and, in my opinion, it looks daft watching men in greathelms wanging at each other.

I do the same when I do c16th swordplay demos for another society with very high standards and they and the public are very amenable to it- it's the old rule of balancing safety with authenticy once again. I'm fairly certian Rottencad will also be wearing his glasses under the mask and a codbox too-again concessions to safety. However his swordplay will be impeccable for his level of ability and learning (I know- I taught him for a good while at a couple of disciplines)

We can be safe and then be false in our ethic of authenticity by saying "this is how fencing was in the past" which would be untrue as we avoided the head or missed out thrusts, or we can say "this piece of protective equipment allows us to give you a better show of the past, please excuse it but we like to go to the pub afterwards with a full complement of eyes".

Given events of the last year with one of our members we are more than happy to make this compromise, we explain it to anyone that uses our services and it is only ever reenactors who complain about it.


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Postby Phil the Grips » Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:22 pm

ooh-looks like we noticed it at the same time!


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Postby Montsegur » Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:42 pm

As Lanark organiser I am perfectly comfortable with this - and they produced an excellent demonstration, one enjoyed by the public who also understood the reasoning.
I have seen their similar demonstrations at other shows and they have been equally good, and equally the reasoning behind mask etc has been accepted by the public too.
This is just a photo, and must be taken in context with the commentary, as Ian points out above.

Two more pics on same demo
Attachments
lan med 236.jpg
medieval 243.jpg


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Postby Montsegur » Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:53 pm

the court
Attachments
337.jpg


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Postby Montsegur » Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:41 pm

Scots flank attacks - complete with arrow landing!
Attachments
medieval  382.jpg
medieval 385.jpg


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Postby Montsegur » Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:56 pm

yet more
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med.jpg
medieval f390.jpg
medieval 394.jpg


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zauberdachs
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Postby zauberdachs » Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:57 pm

how does Guthrie always end up in the middle of photos? first Methven and now this... ;)


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Postby Montsegur » Tue Aug 22, 2006 8:06 pm

OK - so now I'm taking orders.
Full description and I'll see what I can do !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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zauberdachs
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Postby zauberdachs » Tue Aug 22, 2006 8:51 pm

don't suppose you have any more pictures of the English left flank? (as viewed from the English side)


Do not be loath, diligent reader, to winnow my chaff, and lay up the wheat in the storehouse of your memory. For truth regards not who is the speaker, nor in what manner it is spoken, but that the thing be true - Nennius, 8th century

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Postby Montsegur » Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:11 pm

snappers never give captions, so it'll take time, I'll have to check each one.
In the meantime the last offering for tonight
Attachments
Resize of HA246506 medieval2408.jpg
Resize of HA246606 medieval2408.jpg
Resize of HA246806 medieval2408.jpg


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Postby Montsegur » Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:14 pm

3 more
Attachments
Resize of HA247006 medieval2408.jpg
Resize of HA247206 medieval2408.jpg
Resize of HA247306 medieval2408.jpg


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Postby guthrie » Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:06 pm

They look good. got any photos of greig wearing my supertunic? The purple and reddy/orange one?



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Postby Alan_F » Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:51 pm

Dayum I look good!


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Postby Alan_F » Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:52 pm

zauberdachs wrote:don't suppose you have any more pictures of the English left flank? (as viewed from the English side)


Indeed, where the true heroes of the fight were to be found fighting the villainous foe. :wink:


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Postby tonw » Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:08 am

Ok Ian, Phil I understand where your comments on clothing

but you've presented some continuity in you statement about safety when in the thrid picture of your display neither combatants have head protection of any sort

Now I've seen and been in very good swordsplay demonstartions in both armour and unarmoured situations I've cycled through talhoffer without any protection and then had a bout without any protection, (I trust the other combatant not to open my throat or put my eye out)

I've also done this while wearing a salet and bevor and a great helm for an added realism we use full head protection with closed helms as kettle hats are not adequate protection.. and phil you say to the mops that your using a fencing mask and its not authentic could you not do the same with a helm pointing out that its for your safety?

And having not seen a DDS display I will not comment on that I've heard they are very good but other people have stated that it looks wrong when the fencing masks come out.

I'm just commenting on this fact

The rest of the pictures look brilliant and it looks like it was a good event btw


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Ian Macintyre
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Postby Ian Macintyre » Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:26 am

The masks are used for a max of 5 minutes at the end of the 30 minute demo. Hence the other picture is of a walk through of the techniques in a controled environment. This represents the majority of the demonstration. By the look of it cron in responce to sheitelhau.

I have not seen your demo either but I have to say that almost all re-enactment mock sword combat is a very bad representation of historical techniques in my view and I say this as somebody with feet entrenched firmly in both camps. If you are fencing without protection and therefore not actually targetting the head you cannot legitmately claim to be putting into practice the techniques.

The five maisterhau of the german school all target the head, neck or hands. All 5 of them. You simply cannot do the German school justice if you cannot target the head. No Helm I have ever tried, and I own seven, actually allows one to do this. Either it limits the sight too much or it does not offer the required protection.

If all re-enactment is to be is people in clothing then we limit it greatly. History is more than just clothing, its also actions, arts, crafts, skills. So for 2 five minute slots in a weekend the combat demonstrations where undertaken with inauthentic apparal but more authentic techniques in play. It was done so openly with a clear declaration of the anachronism to the public. I may say that not every other little change made for safety or practicality at events is so openly declared.

If you do not like the demo I'm sorry, but so long as people such as George are happy with them we shall continue to do them in this manner.


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zauberdachs
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Postby zauberdachs » Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:08 am

As someone sitting in the crowd I can say they understood the necessity of the mask if not before but certainly after you and Mike cracked each other on the head a few times. These were quite often poking/drawing cuts to the face that I do not believe even a great helm would be complete protection against.

I actually heard someone say something like "that's more like it son, in real fights they wouldn't have fannyed around they'd have been really nasty like that"

MOPs I think enjoyed the great level and accuracy of violence than they would have enjoyed the great accuracy of costume ;)


Do not be loath, diligent reader, to winnow my chaff, and lay up the wheat in the storehouse of your memory. For truth regards not who is the speaker, nor in what manner it is spoken, but that the thing be true - Nennius, 8th century

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Phil the Grips
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Postby Phil the Grips » Wed Aug 23, 2006 12:45 pm

tonw wrote: and phil you say to the mops that your using a fencing mask and its not authentic could you not do the same with a helm pointing out that its for your safety?

We could but helmets only answer one of the requirements we ask of them- that of total head protection. They fail to be light enough, have all round visibility and also, imprtantly, headshaped as they often distort the size and shape of the head, which is important as the only helmet even close to being suitable for this dateline would be a great helm which would be totally impractical. A fencing mask answers all these questions adequately. As Ian points out they only appear for a maximum of 5 minutes in every 30 for a demo.

It is also useful for us when we do "fencing through the ages" as, to use helmets would mean carrying many helmets for several datelines, whereas a fencing mask is anomolous to all of them and so easily "pieced out" by the audience.


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Postby craig1459 » Wed Aug 23, 2006 1:14 pm

Tonw - this is quite a good discussion

What about moving it to its own thread elsewhere - say general history?


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Postby Alan_F » Wed Aug 23, 2006 1:19 pm

zauberdachs wrote:I actually heard someone say something like "that's more like it son, in real fights they wouldn't have fannyed around they'd have been really nasty like that"


Although to be fair in a real fight there is just as much fannying about as there is in a re-enactment fight. A lot of fighting is posturing and push and shove with people reluctant to actually do anything.


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Postby Montsegur » Wed Aug 23, 2006 5:13 pm

dancing knights?
Attachments
shall we dance.jpg
carrick free.jpg
englisha.jpg


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Montsegur
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Postby Montsegur » Wed Aug 23, 2006 5:31 pm

the lone archer
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the lone archer.jpg
389.jpg
390.jpg


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Montsegur
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Postby Montsegur » Wed Aug 23, 2006 5:33 pm

more lanark
Attachments
391.jpg
394.jpg
409.jpg


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Sir Andreas of Thurso
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Postby Sir Andreas of Thurso » Thu Aug 24, 2006 6:18 pm

great pics is there any change of some copys.

it was a great weekend so thanks to all the organiser`s.
Am sure we all look forward to next years.
cheers

john (wallace) LOL



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Gizmo
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Postby Gizmo » Fri Aug 25, 2006 6:18 pm

Thanks for taking these - I even popped up a couple of times. Usually us shorties never show up.

'twas fun. :)


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