Brick Hill Lane Gauntlets

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Graham Ashford
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Brick Hill Lane Gauntlets

Postby Graham Ashford » Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:30 pm

Hello all

I thought I would share my latest project, these are based on the Brick Hill lane Gauntlets in the Royal Armouries in Leeds. There are a standard fingered hourglass gauntlet with blue velvet covering. The fingers are blued with brass knuckles and gadlings with polished steel finger tips.

I welcome any critique/questions/thoughts and hope the pictures are useful in some way.

The velvet was placed on using a contact adhesive after it had almost gone off to avoid any bleed through and was a little bit simpler than anticipated.

Image

Kindest regards

Graham



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Re: Brick Hill Lane Gauntlets

Postby Neibelungen » Fri Sep 30, 2011 3:57 am

Beautiful work... I always appreciate workmanship that takes time, skill and real care.


Not a criticism, but ......

The velvet was placed on using a contact adhesive


Doesn't that kind of deafet the point of hand-making a reproduction as close to the original as possible. It's like saying I made everything absolutely perfect, but used aluminium.

A bit of practise with a startch or pitch resin would have worked and completeded it off exactly.

Just my thoughts.


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Re: Brick Hill Lane Gauntlets

Postby Graham Ashford » Fri Sep 30, 2011 11:20 am

True enough I suppose, my only defence would be that its a learning curve all the time and I hadn't considered taking things that far with the reproduction. I've used rabbit glue in the past once or twice and maybe this is something I could consider for future work again.

Although not entirely related, the level of attention to detail you mention is something I want to strive towards. It sort of reminds me of the video I once saw about the film Akira: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBAJdtPVnZc. STick with the video and what I mean will become clear ... honest.

Thanks for the feedback, much appreciated :thumbup:

Kind regards

Graham



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Re: Brick Hill Lane Gauntlets

Postby Fox » Fri Sep 30, 2011 1:02 pm

Neibelungen wrote:Doesn't that kind of deafet the point of hand-making a reproduction as close to the original as possible.


I understand why someone would want to use an authentic adhesive, because they "would know".

But I don't really understand why it matters, unless you have some reason to believe that it changes something about the construction. What humanly percievable aspect of the finished item is changed?

I don't suppose the iron ore was collected by hand, or turned to steel using tradditional methods. Why is the glue any different?



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Re: Brick Hill Lane Gauntlets

Postby Neibelungen » Fri Sep 30, 2011 1:29 pm

It wasn't desined to be a criticism, it was an observation on completeness of a reasonable simple process that could be fairly acheivable without too much expense or effort.

While I appreciate it makes no difference to the end result and appearance of an altogether excellent example of skilled work, it takes it one step futher to being a reconstruction of an original rather than a facsimile of appearance.

Metal composition is an almost impossible thing to achieve, whereas glue is within reason. It's that, 'why hand sew when a machine does the job'


It also challenges people with skill to delve futher ito a craft and look at how period processes can be used sucessfully to replicate something.
Even 5 years back few people would think about vegetable dying leather for reconstructions. Now it's become, if not common, an acheivable target to strive for.


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Re: Brick Hill Lane Gauntlets

Postby Alan E » Fri Sep 30, 2011 2:48 pm

Lovely piece of work!
Can I ask how you are attaching them to the glove (and which gloves) ?


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Re: Brick Hill Lane Gauntlets

Postby Fox » Fri Sep 30, 2011 3:07 pm

Neibelungen, I take your point; it is that level, of "because you know"; and I understand the satisfaction in that.

But, BTB,...
Neibelungen wrote:It's that, 'why hand sew when a machine does the job'

it really isn't; machine sowing actually gives a different result to hand sowing.



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Re: Brick Hill Lane Gauntlets

Postby Neibelungen » Fri Sep 30, 2011 4:18 pm

it really isn't; machine sowing actually gives a different result to hand sowing.


Going a little OT, but it's about the principle, not the structure.

To the average joe, they wouldn't know or appreciate the difference between machine or hand sewn, let alone comprehend the subtle feel or qualities of the difference.

Partly it is one of the characteristics between asian (commercial) manufacture and european (bespoke like) work. I wouldn't call it hand made, as a lot of indian stuff is actually hand made, and made by people with as much, if not more experience or skill of hand making something.

What European makers bring is the understanding of the workmanship, craft and history and/or can tailor it exactly to the individual for the most part. It's not skills as such, it's knowledge and experience of what's 'right'.

Call it 'authenticity' if you will, or the '6 foot rule' . Just because it 'looks' right doesn't make it 'right'.

It is the difference between Art and Craft.


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Re: Brick Hill Lane Gauntlets

Postby Thomas Hayman » Sat Oct 01, 2011 9:30 pm

Do we know it was starch or pitch resin used on the originals?


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Re: Brick Hill Lane Gauntlets

Postby Graham Ashford » Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:02 am

Alan

Sure no problem. The gloves are stitched in by the fingers, from the tip to the second knuckle. The cuff of the gauntlets are nice and tight enough to pinch hold the rest of the glove in place when they are on so nothing flaps about or is loose.

Hope this helps.

Graham



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Re: Brick Hill Lane Gauntlets

Postby Mark Griffin » Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:12 am

The original, which I have handled a few times, is in a pretty corroded state so what was used is not possible to determine.

A gut feeling (forgive the slight pun) is that it would be a size based glue to keep in in place whilst the rivets etc were put in place

Its a good bit of work, nice to see.

What velvet was used?

If I really wanted to be picky, and I don't want to detract from the good work, is that brass/latten etc is rarely (if ever) seen without both decoration and gilding. Its there for a purpose and that's as a carrier for further embellishment. Also, the brass rivet on decnet medieval armour is pretty much a re-enactorism, they should be steel headed and shanked with a copper alloy coating to help the gilding process.


http://www.griffinhistorical.com. A delicious decadent historical trifle. Thick performance jelly topped with lashings of imaginative creamy custard. You may also get a soggy event management sponge finger but it won't cost you hundreds and thousands.

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Re: Brick Hill Lane Gauntlets

Postby Graham Ashford » Sat Oct 08, 2011 1:52 pm

Mark

Hi there, I'll take that as a request to have some hand raised, gilded, decorated and made exactly right gauntlets. oh yes ... with period materials, although I'll have to get out a new size of paper for the amount of 0's I'll need at the bottom of the quote. :D

It would be lovely to make something that way and is something of a personal project I will one day get to I hope.

Just had a good look at your website, excellent, impressive stuff!

All the best

Graham



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Re: Brick Hill Lane Gauntlets

Postby Mark Griffin » Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:10 pm

:D

Thanks for the comments about the site.

Gilded rivets cost about £8 each if done properly, that's for the bigger ones for articulations on arms etc. Smaller ones will be a bit less.

When you say hand raised, surely that's the only way to do them anyway? Sheet steel was being manufactured just not in the way we do now.

What you have made is not far off and one of the the remaining steps to get it spot on would be to make the decoration more period correct. I'm making the point that its a fundamental basic error in re-enactment circles to use brass in thatway. Bit like making a rolex and using plastic for the cover or missing the odd number off the face.

I wanted to know what velvet you used as its an area i have worked on. We have done some work on 16th/17th cent armour tarting up project here and we used antique silk velvet to do it. Modern stuff didn't work for us so we spent pretty much the same amount of money buying original stuff as we would have on a modern substitute that would have looked wrong

Just make sure the paper for the extra noughts is hand made laid linen rag..... :)


http://www.griffinhistorical.com. A delicious decadent historical trifle. Thick performance jelly topped with lashings of imaginative creamy custard. You may also get a soggy event management sponge finger but it won't cost you hundreds and thousands.

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Re: Brick Hill Lane Gauntlets

Postby Graham Ashford » Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:20 pm

Mark, I'd need to get back to you on the velvet as it was given to me and isn't something I know an awful lot about.

I am slowly getting to grips with chiselling and decoration on the brass work, latten would be nice, but to be honest I haven't looked for it (or an equivalient) other than using brass instead. I want to make myself a nice pair over Christmas using engraving, chisel work ut as with all these things its another skill to try and learn when I suspect most of these jobs would have been done by different folk back in the days.

Gilded rivets, I will have to take a look for some, I might try and use some from time to time on nicer pieces.

Hand raised in the sense of a none welded cuff, I'm afraid to say that the increase in cost for a raised, not welded, cuff means that I make a lot more welded than raised ones as most people are unwilling to pay for something that literally no one will see under bracelets, material and what not.

Don't worry about upsetting me with any thoughts on authentic materials etc ... its often something that I don't get a chance to consider myself as I need to get the objects off to customers, but it would be nice to really give it a proper historical go sometime, so adding all these ideas to the authenticty list.

I mean it about the work as well, I remember Dover all those years ago and the leap in your work looksfantastic, not that it was bad back then but is so good looking now! Have three gold stars :*: :*: :*:



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Re: Brick Hill Lane Gauntlets

Postby Mark Griffin » Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:46 pm

well latten is a period term with a loose definition. Dont usually use the term here as its not well understood. To get some you'd have to do some recycling but how you'd identify it, no idea. One for Miel probably. Its made using a different process and materialsand the exact make-up would be open to debate. I'd be happy having ordinary brass sheet used on my stuff.

You are more than likely right about the division of labour although the earlier you get the harder it is to prove. Later evidence points to that quite clearly or you'd have lots of people being ok at everything rather than skilled at one.


http://www.griffinhistorical.com. A delicious decadent historical trifle. Thick performance jelly topped with lashings of imaginative creamy custard. You may also get a soggy event management sponge finger but it won't cost you hundreds and thousands.

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Re: Brick Hill Lane Gauntlets

Postby guthrie » Tue Oct 11, 2011 10:04 am

Yup, latten is a tricky term alright. Nowadays, we understand that in the medieval period it generally meant a mixed zinc and tin alloy with a wee bit of lead, much more zinc than tin to give it a golden colour. Found especially in candlesticks, chafing dishes, spurs and dress items. Further details on application, ir look up Brownsword 20004, journal of the historical metallurgy society Vol 38, part 2.




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