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Inspired by Craig1459 : )

Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 9:05 pm
by Elenna DeVargr
After eagerly following Craig's pavise construction on Facebook I felt myself passionately inspired to produce one myself. Hungarian Black Army.

Re: Inspired by Craig1459 : )

Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 10:02 pm
by Thomas Hayman
Looks like a good start. What are the dimensions??

Re: Inspired by Craig1459 : )

Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 8:28 am
by The Methley Archer
How do you construct the 'box swction' and join it to the 'wings'?

Re: Inspired by Craig1459 : )

Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 9:01 am
by Elenna DeVargr
The dimensions are roughly 44"x 27", big enough to crouch behind. The 'box' construction on this was made by cutting three pieces of wood and glue and peg together (I've seen them carved out mostly), three layers of linen soaked in a pva/water solution which I thought was more convenient to use than my previous experiment with cheese glue. Plaster/pva for the primer then painted using acrylic. This was my first attempt, the next one, if I can get another table top, will be made more to an authentic standard.

Re: Inspired by Craig1459 : )

Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 9:56 am
by Fox
Thomas Hayman wrote:Looks like a good start.

Cheeses, Tom! You are such a snob! :wink: :lol:

It looks very impressive.

Re: Inspired by Craig1459 : )

Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 10:05 am
by Thomas Hayman
I know, i re-read it and realised i came across as a complete tit. Obviously not my intention!

I'll be putting my money where my mouth is this weekend once i get some elm.

Re: Inspired by Craig1459 : )

Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 10:07 am
by Elenna DeVargr
Thanks Fox. Took a few days and I had to work in the garden, praying it wouldn't rain. Fairly battlefield proof but weighs a bloody ton.

It may be a good start if I can get another table top : )

Re: Inspired by Craig1459 : )

Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 10:11 am
by Thomas Hayman
What is the weight like? What wood is it made from?

Re: Inspired by Craig1459 : )

Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 10:14 am
by Elenna DeVargr
Heavy. It came from an oak kitchen table.

Re: Inspired by Craig1459 : )

Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 10:20 am
by Thomas Hayman
What arrangement have you decided upon for the strapping?

Re: Inspired by Craig1459 : )

Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 10:26 am
by Elenna DeVargr
Something similar to this photo. Not sure about a long strap to carry it over your back, I may put that on the next one.

Re: Inspired by Craig1459 : )

Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 10:30 am
by Thomas Hayman
I thought you might like these images. Image rights to Andrea Carloni.
Castle Tirolo Andrea Carloni5.jpg

Castle Tirolo Andrea Carloni9.jpg


Hopefully they give a little more detail for you.

Re: Inspired by Craig1459 : )

Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 10:34 am
by Elenna DeVargr
Thanks. It looks like twisted rawhide? I've seen one with an iron handle. The photo here could also be rawhide.

Re: Inspired by Craig1459 : )

Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 10:38 am
by Thomas Hayman
It varies from maker to maker throughout the 15th century. Some use twisted rawhide like the Castle Tirolo example some use iron wrapped in hide. The Y shaped piece of hide is by far the most common.

Re: Inspired by Craig1459 : )

Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 10:43 am
by Elenna DeVargr
I suppose it would be more comfortable to pick up and not strain the wrist so much than a bar going straight across. Looks like I'll have to sacrifice some of my dog chews :lol:

Re: Inspired by Craig1459 : )

Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 10:46 am
by Thomas Hayman
Dog chews work very well :-D

I find the giant ones produce the thickest rawhide in the middle. A quick soak and you can untie them.

Re: Inspired by Craig1459 : )

Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 10:51 am
by Elenna DeVargr
I used a good thick dog chew on my Saxon shield many years ago, the only problem was we had a dog then and she thought I made her a new toy (one way to get it looking battered before you have your first battle). May I copy the images you posted as reference please? I'm trying to build up a library of images of the pavise.

Re: Inspired by Craig1459 : )

Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 10:52 am
by Thomas Hayman
Yes, they are not mine so credit should be given to Andrea Carloni.

More images can be found at www.armsandarmourforum.com/forum

Re: Inspired by Craig1459 : )

Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 10:56 am
by Elenna DeVargr
Thank you. :thumbup:

Re: Inspired by Craig1459 : )

Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 12:51 pm
by John Waller
You are probably aware of these, but if not; loads of pavise pics here http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic ... ght=pavise

Re: Inspired by Craig1459 : )

Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 1:11 pm
by Elenna DeVargr
Cheers John. That's where I got most of the photos for my library from and a couple off some Eastern European sites.

Re: Inspired by Craig1459 : )

Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 1:16 pm
by John Waller
Must get around to getting/making a pavise this year. A must-have for every crossbowman.

Re: Inspired by Craig1459 : )

Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 5:17 pm
by Thomas Hayman
Buy one, it's easier. I know a really nice guy who you could get one from ;-)

Re: Inspired by Craig1459 : )

Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 11:55 pm
by KedlestonCraig
:D

Re: Inspired by Craig1459 : )

Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 11:15 am
by John Waller
Thomas Hayman wrote:Buy one, it's easier. I know a really nice guy who you could get one from ;-)



PM me a quote or at least a price guide. I may be interested. Jorge did say he would give me first refusal on and old White Co pavise he was planning to refurbish but I'm not sure he has had the time to get going with his new career and all.

Re: Inspired by Craig1459 : )

Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 11:35 am
by Thomas Hayman
Will do sir!

Re: Inspired by Craig1459 : )

Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 3:17 pm
by gregory23b
Good start as Tom says ;-)

Suggestions:

"I thought was more convenient to use than my previous experiment with cheese glue. "

Because cheese glue is more of a joinery glue for sticking bits of wood together, they used animal sizes, I simply use supermarket gelatine, mixed strong and hot, it does the job beautifully and very cheaply, I do not recommend rabbit skin glue as it is not worth the money when gelatine will do.

I am currently refurbing a limewood one (sorry for the delay JW).

As for the gutter, you can make a simpler and equally proper version by simply lapping the wings under a central plank, you get a shallow gutter but you also reduce the need for any hollowing out. Some were hollowed, a lot were not, or at least not by looking at the real ones, pics or otherwise.

Your covering canvas, should ideally be well washed and quite coarse, some pavises have a coarser canvas on the inside and a slightly finer one on the outer, the gesso is similarly better applied to the front and just enough to fill the grain on the inside, presumably because more gesso means a smoother surface for any painting.

Oak was used, but as you have found is very heavy, other lighter woods include:
lime
fir

Tom can add more.


As for paints, really easy to do in period with a slight adjustment.

Two options

1 - animal based glue, make a gelatine solution that is sticky enough to stick your palms together when pressed.

mix this well with the colours of your choice, put the pot over a water bath to keep it fluid. Brush on in thin strokes, it will dry quickly enough.

Then use a polyeurethane GLOSS varnish to seal.


2. Varnish medium
If you want to make proper varnish do it, but you do not need to.

Polyeurethane GLOSS varnish, mixed with the pigments of choice, brush on.

Why gloss? well because that was what they used and prized, for some reason many reenactors think matt is somehow more 'period', the evidence is to the contrary, a gloss effect was desired in not just oil media, but gums were used to add lustre.

You may find that initial coats absorbd and you get some dull patches, that is fine, simply add a coat when the job is dry.

Do be careful of the colours you use, many of our pigments are much cheaper than then, so be as restrictive as you can, suggested colour palette:

white
yellow ochre
red ochre
lamp black
vermillion (synthetic from Cornellissen) - medium expensive colour
nickle yellow, a substitute for lead tin yellows, is bright.

Enjoy

Re: Inspired by Craig1459 : )

Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 4:03 pm
by Thomas Hayman
Yes, Jorge seems to have covered the majority of the pitfalls.

'Acceptable' woods include Willow, Elm, Fir and Lime. Research into the actual woods on pavises is scarce and it seems that local makers used local timbers without too much concern for it being the 'right' timber.

Tadeas Hajek of Hajek states in his herbal that willow tree wood was good for the production of pavises "because of its stickiness and sinewed character"


Denkstein, Pavises of the Bohemian Type, Acta Musea Nationale.