Crapadeux

Dave B · Post by **Dave B** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:07 pm

Well, I decided that now I've got a few other projects out the way I aught to finish my little cannon project.

This project goes back several years. I first started thinking of doing a cannon back in the days of the old text only forum. I was planning to do it purely because I was working with a bloke who had the materials and kit to make a barrel and owed me a favour.

I raised a thread on the forum and it was Griff who suggested that I buck the usual reenactor trend and build an unwheeled cannon. Basically the thought was that most reenactment cannons were copies of a couple of illustrations be schilling (like Thomas, the W.Co gun).

Although we know from the account books of the dukes of burgundy that they had many different styles of gun, Schilling only drew one or two styles again and again, and reenactors keep building them.

Certainly it seems that they had an awfull lot of smaller guns called 'crapadeax' many of which weren't wheeled. So that's what I'm going for.

The project got derailed part way through when several people suggested that an un-wheeled gun would not be acceptable for reenactment because of the difficulty of moving it around. I spent a lot of time trying to find suitable wheels and work out how to still make it light and small enough.

Anyway, in the end I decided to just go ahead and finish plan A, and here it is. It's based on two rather unclear schilling illustrations, descriptions from the account books of the dukes of burgundy, and a couple of surviving barrels in a swiss museum believed to be burgundian war booty.

I'm hoping that it is representitive of a small burgundian field gun from the mid to late 15thC but it is a bit speculative.

Here it is;

At full depression;

At full elevation.

mid elevation.

The front hinge. this takes all the recoil of the gun. the pin comes out for transit.

details of the barrel clamp

Detail of the elevation arc. it pivots forwards and backwards so that it does not take the recoil.

The muzzle and legs.

The Credits:
Thanks to Mark Griffin and Andy (TRLD) for the origional design input, and particularly to andy for advice on legalities etc.
Thanks to Ron Curly for organising proofing.
Thanks to Fox, mathew and the rest of the group for practicable help and testing assitance.
Thanks to Chris Anson for making the hinge and the elevating metalwork.
Thanks to Jeorge for paint advice. the paint is red ochre based btw.

Hopefully we'll give it a run at boddelwydan.

Dave.

the real lord duvet · Post by **the real lord duvet** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:37 pm

dave - at least it'll never get clamped! although it really is megan's wheelless sister! even the clamps are copied!

One little point. The legs at the front should have been curved like a yoke so 1 man can lift it up on his shoulders and carry it on his back. with a leg on each shoulder.

i've seen a picture of one like that but I can't remember where.....

Lonestan · Post by **Lonestan** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:38 pm

Why did you post these pictures? The wife is now drooling all over the computer, and not getting any work done!!

Dave B · Post by **Dave B** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:45 pm

Lonestan wrote:Why did you post these pictures? The wife is now drooling all over the computer, and not getting any work done!!

Good. I need her to crew it at boddelwydan

craig1459 · Post by **craig1459** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:31 pm

Nice work Dave - reminds me of some wheel-less guns in Tabor

chrisanson · Post by **chrisanson** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:02 am

can av a go?

seriously though nice to see some of my stuff in place. looks really good mate.

Tod · Post by **Tod** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:07 am

That is really nice and I don't like cannon. In case no one has told you, you're a damned clever bloke.

Andy R · Post by **Andy R** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:22 am

Tod wrote:That is really nice and I don't like cannon. In case no one has told you, you're a damned clever bloke.

Coming from you, that's praise indeed..!

Very nice Dave. I never cease to be amazed by the craftsmanship within the re-enactment community.

Dave B · Post by **Dave B** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 1:24 pm

chrisanson wrote:can av a go? seriously though nice to see some of my stuff in place. looks really good mate.

Yep, of course you can. It'll have to be cautious to start off with though. the barrel is all proofed (by the proof house and otherwise) but the carriage is an unknown quantity. A couple of people who know their stuff have questioned how the thing will avoid either flipping over or falling over with the recoil because it cant absorb it by rolling back.

the answer is that I won't know till I try it. Carefully.

Kynges · Post by **Kynges** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 1:55 pm

Are you taking it to Berkely Dave?

Be intresting to see it go if you do

Dave B · Post by **Dave B** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:36 pm

I dunno.

Possibly better to test it where the crowd can't see. although I guess I could take it and see if anyone minds a few bangs after closing time. I guess that would be up to chris bruce and to dwarf.

Fox · Post by **Fox** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:48 pm

Dave,

Let me know if you need assistance with carridge with Berkeley; I might be able to help.
It's a big site, I bet we can find a safe test area when there's no public in.
[I wonder if Dwarf will want to see it fired?

]

It really is a thing of beauty; I'm dead proud.
[points] That's my mate, that is.

Kynges · Post by **Kynges** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:53 pm

Whats its service charge Dave?

Might be worth really downloading so you can guage how the carrage is going to react!

Dave B · Post by **Dave B** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 5:05 pm

I put it in the proof house at 4, but plan to use it at 2.

my theory is that it's the wadding will make most difference to the recoil, so I planned to start with 2 oz (because less and I don't think i'll get powder at the touchhole, but almost no wadd. with a long linstock.

Soggybiker · Post by **Soggybiker** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:06 pm

Hi Dave

I can see the logic in what you are saying however the position of the touch hole is vital in determining the charge. If you reduce the amount of powder to the point where the front of the charge is in line with the touch hole you cause the powder to to expand backwards into the butt of the gun as opposed to touching off the back of the charge and the ignition expanding forwards out of the mouth of the piece as intended.
Remember you also compress the charge when ramming it.

It is possible to make a really big bang with a very small charge in this way, but you are applying stresses in a way not intended for to the weakest part of a muzzle loader.

I dont wish to troll your thread but I would hate to be reading about an accident caused by the bang going backwards and not forwards from any re enactment piece.

Dave B · Post by **Dave B** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:37 pm

The touchole is right on the breechblock, so probably not relevant.

Marcus Woodhouse · Post by **Marcus Woodhouse** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:04 pm

Never mind all that-when are you going to bring along the slide?

the real lord duvet · Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:35 pm

Dave B wrote:I put it in the proof house at 4, but plan to use it at 2.

my theory is that it's the wadding will make most difference to the recoil, so I planned to start with 2 oz (because less and I don't think i'll get powder at the touchhole, but almost no wadd. with a long linstock.

dave has same prob as our cannon in that a small charge can level itself out in the breech and if the wadding is unlucky you could block the touchhole....

we've only managed that mistake a couple of times if you tam down the powder before seriously wadding. forget daves worries about his carriage - someone tie dave to a tree and let the rest of load and fire it until it flips I say.

you don't know when you've put too much in until you've put too much in..... and then (as we found out when we broke the carriage through putting too much in) we just try putting not quite as much as that time when the axles broke off....

i've mentioned to dave that I think the weak link is the legs. If it recoils directly backwards and the front legs are dug in the it might end up on the floor without legs. A bracer might strengthen the legs but lets wait till he's broken this carriage first....

bring it to berkeley by all means. i'm just wondering whether to take the wheels off of megan, stick legs on and then we've got twins.

Lonestan · Post by **Lonestan** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:25 am

There's a thought: are you going to give it a name?

By the way, Ruth would like to have a play, please.

Dave B · Post by **Dave B** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:34 am

Lonestan wrote:There's a thought: are you going to give it a name?

Fox and I were discussing this. the suggestion was 'Phillipa' because the serial no starts with a P and because as cannons go it's a little Pip-squeak. I believe it's also a medieval name. However it does mean 'horse lover' which may be innapropriate for a reenactment cannon.

However it won't be decided until her christening shot, so any suggestions welcome.

Mick,M · Post by **Mick,M** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:43 am

As a thought 1471 used to have gun on a sled type carrage with two small solid wheel about 8inch, any one else remember it? what ever happened to that gun?
any way if the legs come off you could try that?!
just a thought

Dave B · Post by **Dave B** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 11:51 am

There's a whole range of sources that suggest that the burgundians ran guns of this size on small portable frames without wheels. If this frame doesn't work then I think that's show that I built it wrong or used it wrong, not that wheel-less guns dont work.

lets just fire it and see if it breaks.

I've got safety fuse!

Hamish McD · Post by **Hamish McD** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 11:58 am

Legaire Britanic (bad spelling but Napolionic Group portraying froggies on the brits side) used to have a loverly mountain gun with small solid wheels.

Fox · Post by **Fox** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:05 pm

Dave B wrote:I've got safety fuse!

Surely using Duvet as a remote firing system is both funnier and simpler?

the real lord duvet · Post by **the real lord duvet** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:36 pm

Dave B wrote:
lets just fire it and see if it breaks.

I've got safety fuse!

exactly the right attitude. i think everyone has a view on where it would break if it does. i got a gut feeling that the carriage wants to prove us doubters wrong.

seeing i was one of three that hid when you stood there test proofing so
i'd be honoured to act as safety fuse

Fox · Post by **Fox** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:11 am

It worked. Bravo Mr.B

James The Archer · Post by **James The Archer** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:04 pm

Another lovely gun Dave, I'm turning green again!

How about making a hand cart for moving it around?

Dave B · Post by **Dave B** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:51 pm

Fox wrote:It worked. Bravo Mr.B

Yup.

Gratyifyingly undramatic.

We may set it a bit more of a test in november however.

Andy T · Post by **Andy T** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:06 pm

well done-shes a lovely bouncing gal who will get many lecherous glances from bounders such as myself

Dave B · Post by **Dave B** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 2:54 pm

Well, she's had several outings now, during battles, gunery displays etc, and works well. That's not to say that there aren't things I wish I'd done differently. In fact I'm itching to start another one (but don't tell the wife).

But I think I can now officialy declare this project completed.

Dave.