Normans in the US.

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Patrick Kelly
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Normans in the US.

Post by Patrick Kelly »

Hello from across the pond.

I was directed to this website by Stephen Brown of Get Dressed For Battle.

Here are a few photos of the 11th century Anglo-Norman kit I've been working on. I just finished some alterations to my hauberk and thought I'd share a few photos.

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The kit does have some concessions such as the modern machine-made tunic trim, machined stitching of the soft kit, etc. The waist belt fittings are based on swedish viking age finds and belong to a viking interpretation I'm working on. This belt will be replaced with more proper fittings eventually. I also need to get rid of those bi-colored hose. I've painted the helm, spear, and shield as a representation of proto-heraldry.

The helm and riveted coif were made by Get Dressed For Battle. The seperate coif is debatable for this period but I intend to use the mail items for other kits so some versatility is needed. The riveted hauberk is one that I purchased from an on-line company and I have done extensive work on it. The hauberk was originally zinc-plated and I removed the plating with muriatic acid. Quite an experience in itself! I then replaced any rings that were missing their rivets or had rivets that weren't properly set. I've spent the last 2-3 months adding gores to the hauberk's skirt so that it will hang more properly, as well as being easier to move in. I've also added length to the skirt as well. I've since treated the mail with vinegar so as to oxidize the new rings. However, I took these photos before that so some of my alterations could be more easily observed.

Still a work in progress.
Last edited by Patrick Kelly on Sun Dec 18, 2005 11:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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WorkMonkey
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Post by WorkMonkey »

Rargh you beast. I recognise your photos off the hAstings 2006 yahoo forum, I'll be looking for the blue and white fiend coming up that hill.
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Patrick Kelly
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Post by Patrick Kelly »

WorkMonkey wrote:Rargh you beast. I recognise your photos off the hAstings 2006 yahoo forum, I'll be looking for the blue and white fiend coming up that hill.


I wish it were so, but alas finances don't allow for it. I'd love to make the trip if I could.

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Chickun
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Post by Chickun »

Good stuff, looks like you've put loads of effort in! Look forward to more piccies!
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Post by Alan_F »

Don't Norman swords have smaller quillons?
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Patrick Kelly
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Post by Patrick Kelly »

Alan_F wrote:Don't Norman swords have smaller quillons?


Yes and no. There are several designs that may be considered "classic" examples of the period, however, swords of any period exhibit a large amount of variety. Something like guard width can't be used as a defining feature. The sword pictured is well within standard in size and length for the 11th century. However, there are some "issues" with it. While the blade is of the proper design for the period the hilt components (guard and pommel) are of a design that became common during the later 13th century. The more complicated beveled wheel pommel and the guard with it's octagonal cross-section don't really become common until then.

A close-up of the hilt.
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full length shot.
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This particular sword was made by Swedish swordsmith Peter Johnsson, and you won't find a finer modern recreation of a medieval sword. While it isn't exactly "right" in the fine details, for the 11th century, it is far and away the favorite in my collection so it's hard not to show it off. :) Peter had also asked me for a few photos for his upcoming website, hence this sword's inclusion in the photos.

Here's a more detailed write-up of this sword: http://www.myarmoury.com/review_pj_bj.html

I have recently acquired a sword that is more correct in it's design, for the 11th century, and is a truer representation of a "Norman" sword.

The Reeve by Albion Armorers
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http://www.albion-swords.com/

While both swords share the same blade design of Oakeshott's Type X, the hilt components are different. The guard shares a similar width as my "Big Johnsson" but it does not possess the more complicated shapes in it's design. The Brazil nut pommel is also more indicative of the 11th century, rather than the beveled wheel pommel of the BJ. This sword will be used in my 11th century kit as soon as I have a scabbard made for it.

I'll invite everyone here to visit us at www.myArmoury.com .
Last edited by Patrick Kelly on Tue Nov 22, 2005 8:45 pm, edited 5 times in total.

Patrick Kelly
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Post by Patrick Kelly »

Chickun wrote:Good stuff, looks like you've put loads of effort in! Look forward to more piccies!


Thanks! It has been quite a bit of work, especially the riveted mail, but I think it's coming along nicely.

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Post by Stephen brown »

Hi Patrick
Nice to see you here.
Your knowlege will be useful to this forum.
Enjoy.
SB
GDFB

Patrick Kelly
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Post by Patrick Kelly »

Thank you for directing me here Stephen. This Web site has some excellent resources.

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Simon_Diment
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Post by Simon_Diment »

I think I'd be hard pushed to hide behind that shield and Steve will attest to the fact I'm not the largest Norman in the Conquest camp ! :lol:

Nice kit apart from that minor quibble, I wouldn't worry about the parti-ccoloured hose either. Sword pommel has already be covered admirably for the early stuff.

We'll have to make a space for you in the line some time?

Cheers

Simon

Patrick Kelly
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Post by Patrick Kelly »

Simon_Diment wrote:I think I'd be hard pushed to hide behind that shield and Steve will attest to the fact I'm not the largest Norman in the Conquest camp ! :lol:

Nice kit apart from that minor quibble, I wouldn't worry about the parti-ccoloured hose either. Sword pommel has already be covered admirably for the early stuff.

We'll have to make a space for you in the line some time?

Cheers

Simon


I intend to replace the shield eventually for that very reason, plus I'd like something with a more even teardrop shape. However, the price was right in that it was free so I can't complain. If anyone knows of a good source for shields I'd like to know.

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Post by Niall (Na Degad) »

Hi Patrick,

for shields try

Shields and Shoes
http://www.shieldsandshoes.co.uk/

or Bonnacon Shields
http://www.bonnaconshields.co.uk/

or Matuls
http://www.matuls.pl/english/shields.html

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Dave B
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Post by Dave B »

No offence, but re-enactors from accross the pond always seem to look so clean. Where's the patina of a long march to battle?

Of course in the UK we have the advantage of a nice light drizzle, which means you can put your kit away damp in the car boot and come back to find it looking loverly and authentic
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WorkMonkey
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Post by WorkMonkey »

I guess it had to be clean at some point.
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Post by Nigel »

Ok finally had a chance to ahve a look

Simon we dont need no americans we already have them

First no padding visible are you wearing any ?

Shield again too small PM Timothy on here he does some of our shields

Nice job on the lid etc I like painted helmets

PM and I'll point you to Toby Conquests in house Jeweller makes some rocking belf furniture is doing me some nice bits in silver.

Hose and leg bindings no problem with colours but too loose and I hate leg bindings

Who made the boots

Not bad for a go and nice to see some good Norman kit

I'll possibly pop up a pic when Steve has finished mega hauberk
There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

Patrick Kelly
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Post by Patrick Kelly »

Dave B wrote:No offence, but re-enactors from accross the pond always seem to look so clean. Where's the patina of a long march to battle?

Of course in the UK we have the advantage of a nice light drizzle, which means you can put your kit away damp in the car boot and come back to find it looking loverly and authentic


You mean we should be as weathered as these worthies on your website?

Image
http://www.st.dysmas.faithweb.com/Galle ... _fault.jpg
Last edited by Patrick Kelly on Thu Nov 24, 2005 6:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

Patrick Kelly
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Post by Patrick Kelly »

Nigel wrote:Ok finally had a chance to ahve a look

Simon we dont need no americans we already have them


I suppose you need a Yank as much as I need a Brit, and we'll leave it at that.

First no padding visible are you wearing any ?


Not yet. That's going to be my project this winter. Although it's debated as to whether padding was worn under mail in this period I think something must have been worn.

Shield again too small PM Timothy on here he does some of our shields


Agreed, I need a new one.

Nice job on the lid etc I like painted helmets


Thanks, I like them too.

Hose and leg bindings no problem with colours but too loose and I hate leg bindings


I just don't like the colors hence the need for a replacement. Their actually old hose from when I used to do 15th century. If you don't like fashionable winingas it's your lose. :lol:

Who made the boots


http://www.revivalclothing.com/catpages ... wboots.htm

Not bad for a go and nice to see some good Norman kit


Thanks.

Patrick Kelly
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Post by Patrick Kelly »

Here are a few photos that illustrate a little of the the projects progression over the summer.
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Last edited by Patrick Kelly on Sun Dec 18, 2005 11:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Patrick Kelly
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Post by Patrick Kelly »

Here's a photo fresh off the UB cable. Here I'm wearing my new braise and chausses from Revival Clothing. This is an interesting experience in "freedom". :eek: I've added another inch to the hauberk's skirt and am now satisfied with the length and the color of the rings now matches due to a vinegar treatment. As you can see I finally bowed to my inner authenti-nazi and removed the machine-made trim. :(
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Thanks go to the brave Mrs. Kelly for braving the sub-zero cold to man the shutter. Of course when she went back inside to get a coat I told her, "Quit being a girl, I'm fine."

What does everyone think, leg bindings or no? I think it looks a bit more 'Norman' without them but I'm on the fence.
Last edited by Patrick Kelly on Sun Dec 18, 2005 11:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Kate Tiler
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Post by Kate Tiler »

Patrick these are great pictures and I'm sure the children at the school you visited were absolutely thrilled! Thanks for sharing them with us - PM me using the button at the foot of the page, I'd love to send you a small something medieval to take with you when you demostrate!
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Brendan C
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Post by Brendan C »

Patrick

Leg bindings appear to be a matter of choice for the individual; they were evidently used as a means of protecting hose against tough vegetation i.e. nettles, brambles, etc which would have been coompnplace in 11th century Europe, and therefore having them would have made perfect sense.

Personally I always wear them for pre 1100 shows, but some of my comarades in Conquest don't; as I said it's purely a matter of personal preference.

BTW, good luck on putting together the gambeson/aketon

Brendan C

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Ricardo S
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Re: Normans in the US.

Post by Ricardo S »

Hello Mr. Kelly. My name is Ricardo and I would say that your Norman dress is very interesting and quite good. I saw in one of your posts that you acquire a Norman sword. Could you kindly post pictures of the sword? I am in doubt how to identify Norman swords and photos of your sword could help. Thank you. Take care.

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Re: Normans in the US.

Post by Nigel »

Ricardo

its simple get a copy of Oakshott all you need is in there
There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

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Re: Normans in the US.

Post by Medicus Matt »

Nigel wrote:Ricardo

its simple get a copy of Oakshott all you need is in there

You could be a little more specific mate, Ewart Oakeshott must have written or co-authored at least 20 books?

Ricardo, "Records of the Medieval Sword" and "The Sword in the Age of Chivalry" are the two essential works, although you can find Oakeshott's typology with pictures and explanatory notes here:-

http://www.albion-swords.com/articles/o ... pology.htm
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Ricardo S
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Re: Normans in the US.

Post by Ricardo S »

Thank you very much Nigel.
And thank you very much Matt. The books suggestion and the link are amazing indeed.
Going to start to read asap.
Thank you both again.
Take care.

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Re: Normans in the US.

Post by Nigel »

Medicus Matt wrote:
Nigel wrote:Ricardo

its simple get a copy of Oakshott all you need is in there

You could be a little more specific mate, Ewart Oakeshott must have written or co-authored at least 20 books?

Ricardo, "Records of the Medieval Sword" and "The Sword in the Age of Chivalry" are the two essential works, although you can find Oakeshott's typology with pictures and explanatory notes here:-

http://www.albion-swords.com/articles/o ... pology.htm
Sorry yes realsied that after tying BUT everybody knows what I meant right ok good carry on
:D
There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

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