Colours and coats of arms

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
Tod
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2884
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:25 am
Location: A small part of Scotland hidden in middle England
Contact:

Postby Tod » Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:14 am

I'll have trawl through all my books to find the source, but other than Reid I've got an idea it was a Jacobite source.



User avatar
Foxe
Post Centurion
Posts: 759
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2006 9:46 pm
Location: Defending Devon from French invasion
Contact:

Postby Foxe » Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:26 pm

Mark P. wrote:The source for this colour is a written list describing the jacobite colours taken at Culloden.
viz 'On a staff a white silk colours with the Stewarts Arms God Save King'


If this is the case then it would suggest a Government source rather than a Jacobite one. Also, the confusion as to which Jacobite regiment it belonged to makes it less likely that it was a Jacobite source.

If it turns out to be a Jacobite source after all then it might be the Stewart arms or the Royal arms, though I would still think the Stewart arms more likely. The Royal arms have been used by the Stewarts, but they have never been "Stewart" arms, and even a Jacobite would probably describe the Royal arms as "the Kinge's armes" or something, rather than "Stewart".

If it does turn out to be a Government source then I'd say it almost definitely isn't the Royal arms, for the reasons in my last post.

For practical purposes though, the Stewart arms on your ensign may not be right (though probably are), but cannot be proven wrong. The Royal arms may be right (though probably aren't IMHO), but can be shown to be, if not wrong, then unlikely.


...and further this Informant saith not.

Foxe

'Don't be fooled by his general air of living in a skip'

http://www.etfox.co.uk

User avatar
Tod
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2884
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:25 am
Location: A small part of Scotland hidden in middle England
Contact:

Postby Tod » Wed Feb 22, 2006 2:35 pm

I've trawled my books and can't find the Jacobite reference, so it must have been the Hanoverain one I was thinking of. I've also contacted some museums and looked at dozens of web sites.
My conclusion is this. All the COA I can find for the Staurts are the same. William II changed the royal arms as did the Georges. That would logically mean the Stuart arms are no longer royal and would make them old fashioned (?).
James I had his Stuart arms put up in hundreds of churches, so I've got some really good examples of that. Those arms don't seem to change until William III comes along. So maybe the Stuart arms described are the old arms and are called that as they refer only to the Stuarts. If that were the case then the motto "God save King" would also make sense.
If the Stuarts had re-taken the throne would they have used a COA that had been altered from the one the last Stuart monarch used, I some how doubt it.
As I can't pin down any more info. have got nothing back from Lord Lyons office, nothing from the Scottish Heraldry Society and haven't had one museum say I totally wrong I am going to have a colour made with the arms below. The day some one prooves I am wrong with evidence will be the day I roll them up and stick them in the attic for future historians to wonder at.
Attachments
Stuart Arms 1[1].jpg



User avatar
Foxe
Post Centurion
Posts: 759
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2006 9:46 pm
Location: Defending Devon from French invasion
Contact:

Postby Foxe » Wed Feb 22, 2006 3:54 pm

It's your standard!

The Royal arms were not, and never had been "Stuart" arms, and there's absolutely no way that a Hanoverian government source would describe the Royal arms as "Stuart".

But, if you want to put a picture of the Crazy Frog on your standard you can!

It seems to me though that it shouldn't be a case of proving it wrong, it should be a case of proving it right.

There appears to be one source, which describes a flag as having "Stuart" arms. So, there are two possibilities: you could go with what is technically correct, and most likely given the nature and wording of the source (ie, the Stuart arms), or you can go with the other choice which is technically wrong, incredibly unlikely given the wording of the source, and nigh on impossible given the nature of it (the Royal arms). I know which I'd choose!

************************************************************

Did you know that the Heraldry Society of Scotland has a public forum?

As well as a different version of the Stuart arms:
Image

They also have several arms of other families incorporating the Stuarts

For example:
Image
Crichton-Stuart

Image
Sanchez-Stuart.

They also quote a 1680 source on Scottish heraldry:
Stewart, Duke of Lennox
Quarterly: 1st and 4th Azure, three fleurs-de-lis within a bordure engrailed Or (Lordship of Aubigny) 2nd and 3rd Or, a fess chequy Azure and Argent within a bordure gules charged with eight buckles Or (Stewart) surtout Argent, a saltire engrailed (some give it plain) between four roses Gules (Earldom of Lennox)
Stewart, Earl of Moray
Quarterly: 1st and 4th Or, a lion rampant within a double tressure flory counter-flory Gules, a bordure compony Azure and Argent 2nd and 3rd Or, three cushions lozengeways within a double tressure flory counter-flory Gules (Earldom of Moray)



It gets even better. Alexander Nisbet's "A System of Heraldry" 1722:

Stewart of Allanton Or, a fess chequy Azure and Argent and in chief a lion passant Gules armed Azure

Stewart of Ardgowan, John Or, a fess chequy Azure and Argent surmounted by a lion rampant Gules armed and langued Azure

Stewart of Ascog, John Or, a fess chequy Azure and Argent within a bordure Sable charged with eight mascles Argent

Stewart of Balcaaskie, Sir Thomas Quarterly: 1st and 4th Or, a fess chequy Azure and Argent (Stewart) 2nd and 3rd Argent, a galley with oars in action Sable (Lordship of Lorne) all within a bordure Ermines

Stewart of Bighton, Laurence Or, a fess chequy Azure and Argent between three mascles Azure

Stewart of Blackhall, Sir Archibald Or, a fess chequy Azure and Argent surmounted by a lion rampant Gules armed and langued Azure

Stewart of Bonkyll Or, a fess chequy Azure and Argent surmounted by a bend Gules charged with three buckles Or

Stewart of Burray, Robert Or, a fess chequy Azure and Argent surmounted by a bend engrailed Gules all within a double tressure flory counter-flory Gules all within a bordure indented Gules

Stewart of Bute Quarterly: 1st and 4th Or, a bend chequy Azure and Argent (Stewart) 2nd and 3rd Or, a ship and in chief three buckles Sable

Stewart of Castlemilk, Sir Alexander Or, a bend Gules surmounted by a fess chequy Azure and Argent

Stewart of Corme Or, a fess chequy Azure and Argent between three wolves’ heads couped Sable

Stewart of Craigie Quarterly: 1st and 4th Or, a fess chequy Azure and Argent and in chief three buckles Azure (Stewart of Bonkyll) 2nd and 3rd Ermine, on a fess Sable three crescents Argent (Craigie)

Stewart of Craigins Or, a fess chequy Azure and Argent between three otters’ heads couped Gules

Stewart of Dalswinton Or, a fess chequy Azure and Argent surmounted by a bend engrailed Gules all within a double tressure flory counter-flory Gules

Stewart of Dalswinton Or, a fess chequy Azure and Argent between three unicorns’ heads couped Sable

Stewart of Darnley Or, a fess chequy Azure and Argent within a bordure Gules charged with eight buckles Or

Stewart of Davingstone Or, a fess chequy Azure and Argent within a bordure engrailed Gules

Stewart of Drummin, Thomas Or, a fess chequy Azure and Argent between three crosses crosslet fitchy in chief and as many cushions in base Gules, all within a bordure engrailed Azure

Stewart of Durisdeer Or, a fess chequy Azure and Argent within a bordure Gules charged with eight buckles Or

Stewart of Fothergale Or, a lion rampant Gules surmounted by a bend Sable

Stewart of Gairntully Quarterly: 1st and 4th Or, a fess chequy Azure and Argent (Stewart) 2nd and 3rd Or, a lymphad or galley Sable with flames of fire issuing out of the mast-head Proper (Lordship of Lorne)

Stewart of Gairntully, Sir Archibald Quarterly: 1st and 4th Or, a fess chequy Azure and Argent (Stewart) 2nd and 3rd Argent, a galley with oars in action Sable (Lordship of Lorne)

Stewart of Garlies Or, a fess chequy Azure and Argent surmounted by a bend engrailed Gules all within a double tressure flory counter-flory Gules

Stewart of Garth Quarterly: 1st and 4th Or, a fess chequy Azure and Argent surmounted by a lion rampant Gules armed and langued Azure (Stewart of Blackhall) 2nd and 3rd Azure, three garbs Or (Comyn)

Stewart of Inchbrock, David Or, a fess chequy Azure and Argent between a lion passant in chief and a rose in base both Gules, all within a bordure engrailed and compony Azure and Argent

Stewart of Inchbrock, David Or, a fess chequy Azure and Argent between a lion passant in chief and a rose in base both Gules, all within a bordure engrailed and compony Azure and Argent

Stewart of Innermeath Quarterly: 1st and 4th Or, a fess chequy Azure and Argent and in chief a garb Azure (Stewart) 2nd and 3rd Or, a lymphad or galley Sable with flames of fire issuing out of the fore and hinder parts and from the mast-head Proper (Lordship of Lorne)

Stewart of Innermeath (aliter) Quarterly: 1st and 4th Or, a fess chequy Azure and Argent and in chief a fleur-de-lis Azure (Stewart) 2nd and 3rd Or, a lymphad or galley Sable with flames of fire issuing out of the fore and hinder parts and from the mast-head Proper (Lordship of Lorne)

Stewart of Innermeath (aliter) Quarterly: 1st and 4th Or, a fess chequy Azure and Argent and in chief a buckle Azure (Stewart) 2nd and 3rd Or, a lymphad or galley Sable with flames of fire issuing out of the fore and hinder parts and from the mast-head Proper (Lordship of Lorne)

Stewart of Innernytie, William Quarterly: 1st and 4th Or, a fess chequy Azure and Argent and in chief two stars Azure (Stewart) 2nd and 3rd Argent, a galley with oars in action Sable with fire at the mast-head Proper (Lordship of Lorne) and in the centre of the quarters a crescent for difference

Stewart of Ladywell Quarterly: 1st and 4th Or, a fess chequy Azure and Argent surmounted by a lion rampant Gules armed and langued Azure (Stewart of Blackhall) 2nd and 3rd Azure, three garbs Or (Comyn) all within a bordure Argent

Stewart of Liston Or, a fess chequy Azure and Argent and in chief a lion passant Gules armed Azure

Stewart of Minto Or, a fess chequy Azure and Argent surmounted by a bend engrailed Gules and in chief a rose Gules

Stewart of Newark, Robert Or, a fess chequy Azure and Argent within a bordure Gules charged with three lions rampant and as many ships alternately Or

Stewart of Newhall, Alexander Quarterly: 1st and 4th Or, a fess chequy Azure and Argent and in chief three buckles Azure (Stewart of Bonkyll) 2nd and 3rd Ermine, on a fess Sable three crescents Argent (Craigie)

Stewart of Rosling, James Or, a fess chequy Azure and Argent and in chief a lion rampant guardant Gules

Stewart of Rossyth Or, a fess chequy Azure and Argent within a bordure Gules charged with eight buckles Or

Stewart of Scotston Or, a lion rampant Gules armed and langued Azure surmounted by a fess chequy Azure and Argent

Stewart of Strabork, Sir William Quarterly: 1st and 4th Or, a fess chequy Azure and Argent (Stewart) 2nd and 3rd Azure, three garbs Or (Comyn earldom of Buchan)

Stewart of Tongorth, William Quarterly: 1st and 4th Or, a fess chequy Azure and Argent and in chief three garbs Azure (Stewart) 2nd and 3rd Argent, a galley with oars in action Sable (Lordship of Lorne)

Stewart of Torrance Or, a bend Gules surmounted by a fess chequy Azure and Argent with a crescent Gules in sinister chief for difference

Stewart, Duke of Albany Quarterly: 1st Or, a lion rampant within a double tressure flory counter-flory Gules (Scotland) 2nd Gules, a lion rampant Argent within a bordure Argent charged with eight roses Gules (Earldom of March) 3rd Gules, three legs of a mam armed Proper conjoined in the centre at the upper parts of the thighs, flexed in triangle, garnished and spurred Or (Lordship of the Isle of Man) 4th Or, a saltire and chief Gules (Lordship of Annandale)

Stewart, Duke of Albany Or, a fess chequy Azure and Argent surmounted by a lion rampant Gules

Stewart, Duke of Albany (aliter) Quarterly: 1st and 4th Or, a lion rampant Gules and in chief a label of three points Azure (Dukedom of Albany) 2nd and 3rd Or, a fess chequy Azure and Argent with a label of three points Gules in chief (Stewart)

Stewart, Earl of Angus Quarterly: 1st and 4th Or, a fess chequy Azure and Argent surmounted by a bend Gules charged with three buckles Or (Stewart of Bonkyll) 2nd and 3rd Or, a lion rampant Gules debruised by a riband Sable (Lordship of Abernethy)

Stewart, Earl of Atholl Quarterly: 1st and 4th Or, a fess chequy Azure and Argent (Stewart) 2nd and 3rd Paly of six Sable and Or (Earldom of Atholl)

Stewart, Earl of Buchan Quarterly: 1st and 4th Or, a lion rampant within a double tressure flory counter-flory Gules (Scotland) 2nd and 3rd Azure, three garbs Or (Earldom of Buchan)

Stewart, Earl of Buchan (aliter) Quarterly: 1st and 4th Or, a fess chequy Azure and Argent (Stewart) 2nd and 3rd Azure, three garbs Or (Earldom of Buchan)

Stewart, Earl of Bute Or, a fess chequy Azure and Argent within a double tressure flory counter-flory Gules

Stewart, Earl of Galloway Or, a fess chequy Azure and Argent surmounted by a bend engrailed Gules all within a double tressure flory counter-flory Gules

Stewart, Earl of Mar Quarterly: 1st and 4th Azure, a bend between six crosses crosslet fitchy Or (Earldom of Mar) 2nd and 3rd Or, a fess chequy Azure and Argent between three open crowns Gules (Stewart of Garioch)

Stewart, Earl of Moray Quarterly: 1st and 4th Or, a lion rampant within a double tressure flory counter-flory Gules debruised by a baton Sable (Scotland) 2nd and 3rd Argent, three cushions within a double tressure flory counter-flory Gules (Earldom of Moray)

Stewart, Earl of Moray (aliter) Quarterly: 1st and 4th Or, a lion rampant within a double tressure flory counter-flory Gules, all within a bordure compony Argent and Azure (Scotland) 2nd and 3rd Argent, three cushions within a double tressure flory counter-flory Gules (Earldom of Moray)

Stewart, Earl of Orkney Quarterly: 1st and 4th Or, a lion rampant within a double tressure flory counter-flory Gules debruised by a baton sinister Sable (Scotland) 2nd and 3rd Azure, a ship with its sails furled up Or (Earldom of Orkney)

Stewart, Earl of Traquair Quarterly: 1st Or, a fess chequy Azure and Argent (Stewart) 2nd Azure, three garbs Or (Earldom of Buchan) 3rd Sable, a mullet Argent (Traquair) 4th Argent, an orle Gules and in chief three martlets Sable (Rutherford)

Stewart, James in Dundee Quarterly: 1st and 4th Or, a fess chequy Azure and Argent (Stewart) 2nd and 3rd Azure, three garbs Or (Comyn) all within a bordure Argent charged with six wolves’ heads erased Gules, and surmounting all a lion rampant Gules

Stewart, Lord Blantyre Or, a fess chequy Azure and Argent surmounted by a bend engrailed Gules and in chief a rose Gules

Stewart, Lord Innermeath Quarterly: 1st and 4th Or, a fess chequy Azure and Argent (Stewart) 2nd and 3rd Or, a lymphad or galley Sable with flames of fire issuing out of the fore and hinder parts and from the mast-head Proper (Lordship of Lorne)

Stewart, Walter Or, a fess chequy Azure and Argent surmounted by a lion rampant Gules armed and langued Azure all within a bordure Ermine

Stewart, Walter in London Or, a bend Gules surmounted by a fess chequy Azure and Argent within a bordure also chequy Azure and Argent


That's a heckuva lot of "Or, a fesse chequy azure and argent"! Which Stewart is your one?

You also mentioned the Kincardine arms. There's only one Kincardine in Nisbet:

Kincardine, Earl of (Bruce) Quarterly: 1st and 4th Argent, a lion rampant Azure armed and langued Gules (Bruce of Skelton) 2nd and 3rd Or, a saltire and chief Gules (Bruce of Annandale)

The Royal arms though would be just plain wrong, whatever way you look at it.


...and further this Informant saith not.

Foxe

'Don't be fooled by his general air of living in a skip'

http://www.etfox.co.uk

User avatar
RTB
Posts: 81
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 5:10 pm
Location: Wigan

Postby RTB » Thu Feb 23, 2006 7:04 pm

Foxe is right,
the arms you've posted are "the Royal Arms of Stuart".
The image I have has the motto "BEATI PACIFICI"
Dates from 1603. Note the "Monarchs helm"

From "Basic Heraldry",Steaphen Friar and John Furguson. pp106.

Chris


Winner: Livinghistory.co.uk "Posting Style of the Year" Award, 1978

User avatar
Tod
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2884
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:25 am
Location: A small part of Scotland hidden in middle England
Contact:

Postby Tod » Tue Feb 28, 2006 3:27 pm

John Roy Stewart was from Kincardine but the flag from there was green, all info. seems to point to that, whether it had arms on it or not I have no real idea. I might find out as there is a big historical meeting on JRS this year.

The arms I am talking about are James III (Old Pretender). I think they would be the same as Charles II. Recently I've found some really interesting stuff. Peterfield museum has an interesting set of Stuart arms, with a MacDonald motto. They are really confused.

I found several churches with arms described as Stuart all put up in the time of James I. I know a site in Milton Keynes where they were painted over, only to be rediscovered in the 1960's when the roof fell in and the rain washed the white wash off.

If the arms we are getting made are wrong. Then what arms would James III have used? Surely the ones his family had used when they were in GB. He still considered himself to be king and son his heir.

Time to trawl documents and records from Italy I think.



User avatar
Foxe
Post Centurion
Posts: 759
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2006 9:46 pm
Location: Defending Devon from French invasion
Contact:

Postby Foxe » Tue Feb 28, 2006 6:54 pm

The point is not that James III would not have used the Royal Arms. If the source you had for the flag said "A white flag with James III's arms etc." there'd be no doubt. The point is that James III's arms and the Stewart arms are NOT the same thing at all, and there is no way that a Hanoverian would ever have recorded the Royal arms as "Stuart" or "Stewart".

James III's arms might well have been anything, but that's not relevant to the discussion of your flag, because your flag should not be bearing James III's arms, it should be bearing the Stuart arms which are, were in 1745, and have been for centuries before that, yellow with a blue and white chequered bar.

To take a similar case: Between 1649 and 1653 the Commonwealth flag consisted of the St. George's cross and Irish harp, but during the same period the St. George's cross was still flown, for example, from all ships belonging to the Commonwealth. Thus, the St. George's cross was a flag used by the Commonwealth, but it was not the Commonwealth Flag.

In the same way, the Royal Arms (through all the variations) have been, and still are, the arms of the Monarch of Great Britain. During the Stuart period they were used by the Stuarts, but they were never Stuart Arms.

A Hanoverian in 1745 would no more call the Royal arms "Stuart" than a Royalist in 1650 would call the St. George's cross "Commonwealth".

Sometimes, in a modern sense, the variations of the Royal arms used during the Stuart period are described as "Stuart" (as in, I suspect, your churches for example), but this is a modern appelation used to differentiate them from, say, the Hanoverian versions of the same coat of arms.

If the flag of your regiment is described as bearing the "Stuart" arms then it almost certainly incorporated the "Or a fesse chequy azure and argent" or one of the many variants. It definitely did not incorporate the Royal Arms. They're not the same thing and never were.

Forget trying to work out what arms James III might have used, that's not what was on your flag.

In 1745, if a Hanoverian source described a coat of arms as "Stuart" then it was describing the Stuart arms, NOT the Royal arms.


...and further this Informant saith not.

Foxe

'Don't be fooled by his general air of living in a skip'

http://www.etfox.co.uk

User avatar
Tod
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2884
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:25 am
Location: A small part of Scotland hidden in middle England
Contact:

Postby Tod » Tue Feb 28, 2006 7:21 pm

Foxe, I see the logic. My problem is I have never seen any 18th century colours with shield type arms on (maybe MarkP can help on that one). So it must have been some thing else. maybe not the Royal Stuart arms but some thing. I also wonder why the arms weren't described as rebel.
Clearly this needs more investigation and I'm going to put that on hold until I get up to Scopland later in the year. Then I can speak to people who have a lot more detailed knowledge about JRS.

In the mean time I have commisioned a set of Royal Arms on a colour, and they look so good they might end up in my front room (I've seen the work of the guy doing it and he is really skilled).

Forgetting the colour for the moment.
When James III came over for the '15 he must have had a colour, I'd be interested to know what he used. Maybe that was a Stuart set of arms. But which branch?
Then there is the colour raised at the beginning of the '45. No mention of it being either Royal or Stuart.
Then as the Pope and much of royalty of europe thought the Staurts were royal as well I wonder what arms they recognised?

If I didn't have a job, a van engine to rebuild, a society to chair, a regt to run, and wasn't making all manner of leatherwork I would research and write a book on this............



User avatar
Foxe
Post Centurion
Posts: 759
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2006 9:46 pm
Location: Defending Devon from French invasion
Contact:

Postby Foxe » Tue Feb 28, 2006 8:40 pm

Tod wrote:Foxe, I see the logic. My problem is I have never seen any 18th century colours with shield type arms on (maybe MarkP can help on that one). So it must have been some thing else. maybe not the Royal Stuart arms but some thing. I also wonder why the arms weren't described as rebel.


You'd have the same problem with the Royal arms. Both the Royal arms and the Stewart arms were "shield type" arms. If you can take the Royal arms off the shield and put them on a flag then you can do the same with the Stewart arms. If you can't take the Stewart arms off a shield and put them on a flag then you can't do it with the Royal arms either. To be honest, I'm not sure what you're getting at.

As I understand it the quotation which describes the flag is part of a list of flags captured at Culloden. If that is the case then describing it as rebel would be redundant - it's very presence on the list marked it out as being a rebel flag.

If the Old Pretender didn't use the Royal arms in the '15 (and I would imagine he probably did. He wasn't entitled to them, but I doubt that would have bothered him), and he used instead a Stuart flag, then I imagine he would probably have used the unadulterated arms of the head of Clan Stuart - the Or, a fesse chequy azure and argent - rather than the adulterated version of one of the Stuart branches.

Another possibility is that the flag used by all the pretenders was the Union flag. It sounds unlikely, and I've not seen any evidence to support it, but there is a logic behind it. Until the 19th century the Union flag was not the flag of Britain as a country, but was a flag of the monarch who ruled England and Scotland (in much the same way that medieval knights had a livery and badge as well as a coat of arms). Representatives of the monarch (like Navy ships) flew the Union flag, but it was an offence for anyone not a representative of the monarch (like merchant ships) to do so. In the same vanity that might have led the pretenders to re-adopt the Royal arms they might also have re-adopted the Royal flag. Until quite late the Union flag was sometimes flown in Scotland with the St. Andrew's cross superimposed over the St. George's. No evidence for these thoughts, just chucking them in the melting pot.


...and further this Informant saith not.

Foxe

'Don't be fooled by his general air of living in a skip'

http://www.etfox.co.uk

User avatar
Mark P.
Posts: 415
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 12:10 am
Location: Howden
Contact:

Postby Mark P. » Tue Feb 28, 2006 11:07 pm

For other jacobite colours bearing a coats of arms see that of John Gordon of Glenbuckets Regiment bearing the arms of the Duke of Gordon.
Osprey Warrior Highland Clansman p53.

MP


Pulteney's Regiment
'We're from the Government, we're here to help'

http://www.13thfoot.co.uk or http://www.facebook.com/LaceWars

'The next best thing to knowing something is knowing where to find it'

User avatar
Tod
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2884
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:25 am
Location: A small part of Scotland hidden in middle England
Contact:

Postby Tod » Wed Mar 01, 2006 11:42 pm

"You'd have the same problem with the Royal arms. Both the Royal arms and the Stewart arms were "shield type" arms. If you can take the Royal arms off the shield and put them on a flag then you can do the same with the Stewart arms. If you can't take the Stewart arms off a shield and put them on a flag then you can't do it with the Royal arms either. To be honest, I'm not sure what you're getting at. "

OK to explain. When I say shield type arms I mean a shield with some thing on it. Nothing supporting the shield, nothing behind it just a plain shield shape.
Do you mean that the arms would be the shield shape with other designs around it?
If that is the case then (going back to the flag/colour) then are you saying it could have been James (III) Stuarts family arms. That would make sense as another smaller branch of Stuarts may not have had such easily recognisable arms.

By the way I knew about the Heraldry Scoiety'e public forum but I joined and asked on the members area.
As I said some postings back I don't know much about arms colours etc. My speciality lies in other areas.



User avatar
Foxe
Post Centurion
Posts: 759
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2006 9:46 pm
Location: Defending Devon from French invasion
Contact:

Postby Foxe » Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:38 am

Technically speaking the collection of stuff around the shield is called the "achievement" of arms. Most coats of arms are shown without the rest of the achievement, but most have them. Anything you can do with the Royal arms you can do with the Stewart arms (I don't know offhand what the rest of the Stewart achievement looked like, but I'm sure it existed).

Given the profusion of Stewarts, all with the same arms (or variants thereon) I would imagine the Stewart arms would be easily recogniseable.

It could have been James III's family coat of arms, but that would not be the Royal arms. I would think it more likely that the arms were the Clan Stewart arms (or, fesse chequy...) - which may have been James III's family arms anyway. Those arms would have been easily recognised as "the Stewart arms"


...and further this Informant saith not.

Foxe

'Don't be fooled by his general air of living in a skip'

http://www.etfox.co.uk

User avatar
Tod
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2884
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:25 am
Location: A small part of Scotland hidden in middle England
Contact:

Postby Tod » Thu Mar 02, 2006 11:22 am

So some thing like Mark P posted would be the most likley to be correct.
I can see I'm going to have change that can't have a lobster designing our colour.
Still I suppose I could use the other one as BPC "might" have got one made on a wim for a ball at Holyrood.............and it is very pretty. :lol:



User avatar
Tod
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2884
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:25 am
Location: A small part of Scotland hidden in middle England
Contact:

Postby Tod » Thu Apr 13, 2006 12:33 pm

Our colour is now finished and as soon as I work out how I'll post a picture. It has been made by one of Pulteney's Regt (13th Foot) and is bloody amazing. So good that when not is not in use it'll be in my front room.
Yes it is like the Royal Arms that James and Charles used, but as no one can "prove" it's wrong it's what we are going to use. As soon as get some more money together we will get the Stewart Arms refered to as the "other" colour in this thread made.

We will be un-furling for the first time at Lace Wars first event of the year at Wimpole Hall in Cambridgeshire on 6th May.



User avatar
Tod
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2884
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:25 am
Location: A small part of Scotland hidden in middle England
Contact:

Postby Tod » Thu Apr 13, 2006 11:16 pm

If this works, there should be a picture. Credit for the work goes to Robert Saffery.
Attachments
colour RaT.jpg



User avatar
Tod
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2884
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:25 am
Location: A small part of Scotland hidden in middle England
Contact:

Postby Tod » Thu Apr 13, 2006 11:17 pm

Just noticed the Made in England. I think a slightly smaller bottle of Port may be going to the maker :lol:



jfdiow
Posts: 34
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:27 am
Location: Isle of Wight

Royal coat of arms-Scotland

Postby jfdiow » Wed May 03, 2006 5:53 pm

Hi,

Just to muddy the waters even more there is evidence that the monarch used a different set of arms when in Scotland to those used when in England (even after the 1707 Act) Even today the Queen uses a different set of arms in Scotland. The Scottish quarters are given more prominence, the supporters change places and the mottos are those of the Scottish kings rather than the English.

So what you will be flying is the *English* arms of the King of England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland-not sure if that is what you want to do? But it is a very pretty flag:-)

Best wishes, and see you Sat.

Judith
Attachments
Scottish coat of arms.gif
Scottish Coat of Arms


No pixels were seriously harmed in the transmission of this message although a few may have been bumped, bruised and ill-treated

User avatar
Foxe
Post Centurion
Posts: 759
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2006 9:46 pm
Location: Defending Devon from French invasion
Contact:

Postby Foxe » Wed May 03, 2006 10:43 pm

Right or wrong, that's a very pretty flag Tod!


...and further this Informant saith not.

Foxe

'Don't be fooled by his general air of living in a skip'

http://www.etfox.co.uk

User avatar
John Waller
Post Knight
Posts: 1551
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 1:36 pm
Location: Surrey

Postby John Waller » Thu May 04, 2006 9:21 am

Tod,
Nice colour. Does your flag man do commissions? My NA regt are looking for quotes for a new colour (that's if we can ever agree on what it should look like! Only been argueing/researching for 5+ years.).



Cheers

John


Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

User avatar
Tod
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2884
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:25 am
Location: A small part of Scotland hidden in middle England
Contact:

Postby Tod » Thu May 04, 2006 12:03 pm

Hi John,
yes I think so. His name is Robert Saffery, he's a really nice guy and very skilled for his age (I think he's about 20). Send me a pic and I'll ask him.

Foxe/John thanks for the compliments, the design used was found in Scotland and England, there were a few small variations in the ones I found, so not sure about Judiths comments, and as you said its very nice :D :D :D :D



jfdiow
Posts: 34
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:27 am
Location: Isle of Wight

Royal coat of Arms-Scotland

Postby jfdiow » Thu May 04, 2006 5:22 pm

It's not difficult to find the evidence:
http://www.royal.gov.uk
(my **s)
Separate Scottish and English quarterings of the Royal Arms originate from the Union of the Crown in 1603. The Scottish version of the Royal Coat of Arms shows the lion of Scotland in the first and fourth quarters, with that of England being in the second. The harp of Ireland is in the third quarter.
*in the 18th century the fleur de lys of France was still included with the english lions as a sign of the inheritance of King of France which passed down the Royal Line)*
The mottoes read 'In defence' and 'No one will attack me with impunity'. *From the times of the Stuart kings*, the Scottish quarterings have been used for official purposes in Scotland (for example, on official buildings and official publications).

From Wikipedia (which can be a dodgy source)
Kingdom of Scotland
A form of these arms was first used by King William I in the 12th century. A register in the College of Arms in London describes the arms of the Kyng of Scottz as being Or, a lion rampant within a double tressure flory counter-flory Gules. (The lion is usually also depicted armed and langued azure.) The supporters were unicorns (chained as heraldic unicorns normally are, since they were considered dangerous beasts) and the crest was a crowned lion gules sejant affronte, holding a sceptre and a sword. The motto was Nemo me impune lacessit (Latin: "No one provokes me with impunity") and the war-cry was "in defens."

[edit]
Union of the Crowns
On the death of Queen Elizabeth I in 1603, King James VI of Scotland inherited the English throne, becoming King James I of England. The Royal Coat of Arms of England were quartered with those of Scotland, and a quarter for the Kingdom of Ireland was also added, as the English monarch was also King of Ireland.

In each of the still independent kingdoms he used a slightly different version of the same arms, and this distinction was maintained after the Acts of Union 1707 and continues to this day. In the Royal Coat of Arms for Scotland. the Scottish quarter and unicorn supporter are given priority in place; the Scottish crest and mottos are use.

There are other non-Internet references.

Therefore I stand by my post-nothing to stop you flying a very pretty flag, which I see as the standard of the King of England, Scotland Wales and Ireland (and France)*but* I think it would be recognised by the Crown Forces as an English Royal Coat of Arms, (with the supporters holding Scottish banners) rather than the colour of the Stewarts.

-Your mileage may vary, and since I am a mere woman, I fight for no flag (was going to say scrap of silk but then it wouldn't be true!:-)-

Best wishes,

Judith


No pixels were seriously harmed in the transmission of this message although a few may have been bumped, bruised and ill-treated

User avatar
Grymm
Post Centurion
Posts: 594
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 9:18 pm
Location: The Chilterns

Postby Grymm » Wed Jun 14, 2006 1:13 pm

Hi Tod and all,
on a recent successful raid on the 2nd hand bookshops of Oxford I picked up a copy of 'Culloden and the '45' (Jeremy Black, pub 1990 by Guild Publishing, no ISBN as far as I can see) and inside it has 2 photos that might be of interest; one, a blank Commission for Lieutenancy in Cluny MacPherson's regt bears a wax seal which is described as, Royal Arms quartered for England and France and surrounded by the Collar of the Order of the Thistle, and the commission wording starts 'Charles Prince of Wales þe Regent of Scotland, England, France and Ireland...' photo is credited to National Museum of Scotland.

And the other photo is titled Prince Charles Edward's seal and shows the seal and an impression made by said seal.
It's a large oval containing 2 other smaller oval shields side by side in the centre,in the impression the left oval is supported by a lion and the right by a unicorn all surmounted by a crown and surrounded by drapery.
The Left oval IS the Royal Arms, quarters 1and4 quartered for England and France modern, 2 is Scotland, 3 is the Irish harp. all surrounded by a ribbon/motto/garter unfortunatly too small for me to make out the writing.
The right is a complicated affair with each quarter being quartered itself and is very difficult to make out clearly. Photo credit for this one is Harris Museum and Art Gallery.I'm guessing the one in Preston http://www.harrismuseum.org.uk/

Right, off to put more of my life into cardboard boxes, Happy Happy Joy Joy...Grymm


Futuaris nisi irrisus ridebis.

User avatar
Mark P.
Posts: 415
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 12:10 am
Location: Howden
Contact:

Postby Mark P. » Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:50 am

Find this during an idle mornings browsing, a bit too late for Tod and a bit too early in period but might be interesting.

Proceedings of the Society of Antiquaries of Scotland 1961-62
Two Seventeenth Century Embroidered Royal Coats of Arms
http://ads.ahds.ac.uk/catalogue/adsdata ... 84_290.pdf

http: //ads.ahds.ac.uk/catalogue/adsdata/PSAS_2002/pdf/vol_095/95_284_290.pdf

MP


Pulteney's Regiment
'We're from the Government, we're here to help'

http://www.13thfoot.co.uk or http://www.facebook.com/LaceWars

'The next best thing to knowing something is knowing where to find it'

User avatar
Tod
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2884
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:25 am
Location: A small part of Scotland hidden in middle England
Contact:

Postby Tod » Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:07 am

I just found this

http://www.highland-news.co.uk/news/ful ... loden.html

This is much like the colour we have had made, rather than just the arms.
Interesting.



User avatar
Mark P.
Posts: 415
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 12:10 am
Location: Howden
Contact:

Postby Mark P. » Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:03 pm

Very interesting, it seems to follow a 'typical pattern' for regimental colours of the first half of the C18th.
Alternatively some later militia or fencible units might fit the bill.

I notice they describe it as a camp flag.

Camp colours would be about 18 inches square, regimental colours about 6 foot square.

MP


Pulteney's Regiment
'We're from the Government, we're here to help'

http://www.13thfoot.co.uk or http://www.facebook.com/LaceWars

'The next best thing to knowing something is knowing where to find it'

User avatar
Tod
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2884
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:25 am
Location: A small part of Scotland hidden in middle England
Contact:

Postby Tod » Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:31 pm

That's me getting one for outside the tent then. :D



User avatar
Mark P.
Posts: 415
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 12:10 am
Location: Howden
Contact:

Postby Mark P. » Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:38 pm

You need four in order to set the boundaries of camp. :wink:

MP


Pulteney's Regiment
'We're from the Government, we're here to help'

http://www.13thfoot.co.uk or http://www.facebook.com/LaceWars

'The next best thing to knowing something is knowing where to find it'


Return to “1715-1810”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests