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Hose/Gaiters

Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 12:11 am
by Dannolad
Good evening all,

I am still very new at this SK business and am still putting together a set of kit. At a recent muster, I saw a combination of footwear and have come to the conclusion after much googling (preparing to be shot down in flames here) that closed latchets are the correct pattern of footwear for the common soldier (Musket).

Now I have seen a few people with cloth hose with their socks worn Nora Batty style all crumpled around the ankle, I have seen some wearing knitted hose over the top. My personal choice would be some thick fabric or even leather hose/gaiters worn over the socks, that protect the ankle and calf from thorns etc - how historically accurate would that be? What do you use? Any pointers gratefully received.

Regards

Danny

Re: Hose/Gaiters

Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 11:32 am
by Graham Cooley
Hi Danny,

Welcome to the hobby. Whatever you do don't go down the road of rolled down socks. It was the fashion 20 years ago but is wrong. I'm not a fashion expert and there is likely to be someone with more knowledge than I but hopefully below will help.

Hose are usually knitted wool.(If you had lots of money, usually gentry, you may have silk) In bad or cold weather you may want to wear an extra layer and this can often be linen hose over your wool ones. Hence these are refered to as over hose. If they fall down they can look a bit untidy. I don't have any evidence but it is possible that this outer layer of over hose could have been waxed to make them water resistant.

Most events are during the summer and as a result many reenactors will not wear overhose as there is no need.

Graham

Re: Hose/Gaiters

Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 11:36 am
by Graham Cooley
Oh forgot to add. I don't know of any evidence for leather gaiters as you describe.

You are portraying a musketeer. You therefore need to try and think like a musketeer. What were you issued? Is your regiment based in the field or in a garrision? (In the field you do more marching and wear out your shoes and other kit. You also have to carry everything you need while in a garrision you can leave stuff in your barracks.)

Graham

Re: Hose/Gaiters

Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:03 am
by Andy R
The leather gaiters are reffered to as "cockers" and there is evidence for them.
Also refference to other materials.

This is not primary evidence, but it gives you the idea...
COCKERS, or COGGERS, properly half-boots made of untanned leather, or other stiff materials, and strapped under the shoe; but old stockings without feet, used as gaiters by hedgers and ploughmen, are often so called. Cockers
Leg protection of choice for dragoons as it goes.

Re: Hose/Gaiters

Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:18 am
by Dathi
From a French painting by one of the Le Nain brothers dated 1642

http://www.londonfoodfilmfiesta.co.uk/I ... _small.jpg

By Pieter Snayers

http://media.photobucket.com/image/snay ... Vrancx.jpg

http://media.photobucket.com/image/snay ... sk.jpg?o=7

Mixed approach as you can see

Re: Hose/Gaiters

Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:32 am
by Dannolad
I am quite taken by the idea of a set of cockers. But coarse linen hose also catch my fancy, http://www.londonfoodfilmfiesta.co.uk/I ... _small.jpg the hose in this picture look very similar in style to spats.

Re: Hose/Gaiters

Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:56 am
by steve stanley
If you want to go the NUG(Normally,usually,generally) route,just get knitted ones in the thickest wool you can comfortably wear.....If they get wet,change for the spare pair you should carry....If they get holed,darn them with your sewing kit............I'm not saying gaiter-ish things didn't exist...just no provenance for use by an ECW musketeer...............And many of us have spent years arguing against the 'There's one in the corner of this German painting ten years earlier,so OF COURSE they're alright' school...............

Steve

Re: Hose/Gaiters

Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 10:09 am
by Andy R
Hi Steve,

yes, there are issues, but they have a very functional use in an agricultural setting. I am trying to remember the provenance given by someone long ago in the mists of time, but they do save a lot of missery if you are involved with thicket and undergrowth.

There is more provenance for that time of legwear for dragoons rather than bucket tops - which are not good for the job when you ain't cavalry. Then cockers have the anology of being akin to modern half chaps. Bjarnis Boots made a high end pair for a mate years ago which were in affect supple boot uppers worn over a shoe.

But don't get me started on "dragoons" with pop guns.....

Re: Hose/Gaiters

Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 10:15 am
by steve stanley
Quite agree on probable Dragoon use..(Who should NOT have 'carbines'...'buff coats'..lobster=pots')....NOW see what you've started me on :devil: ........Anyway....IF the start-up is right for rural types,it protects the lower bit of the hose anyway..........

Re: Hose/Gaiters

Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 10:32 am
by Andy R
steve stanley wrote:IF the start-up is right for rural types,it protects the lower bit of the hose anyway..........
Depends on length. The first pair I ever saw were back in 1991 and made by Sarah Junipa. They were no longer than a pair of "tall" desert boots (ankle length) This is before Cordwainer Crafts were making their c17th DM's.

Re: Hose/Gaiters

Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 10:38 am
by Dannolad
Why do I get the feeling that I have taken the lid off a very large jar of worms?

Re: Hose/Gaiters

Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 10:44 am
by Andy R
Dannolad wrote:Why do I get the feeling that I have taken the lid off a very large jar of worms?
Not at all - just promoting healthy debate :thumbup:

Re: Hose/Gaiters

Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 11:50 am
by Dathi
The big problem for us is there is not one single painting that shows English troops in any great detail. There are some woodcuts, a few stained glass images and a Ducth painting that was thought to show English Troops but now is thought to be Dutch troops.

Head to Europe and there is a whole genre of military painting covering the 30 years that has some stunning detail, including buff coats on infantry, felt hats with feathers and brims cocked up, two pairs of hose, soldiers with shirt sleeves showing, snapsacks, hose pointed to the front of breeches, Eastern European dress and swords, doublets left undone and thats just a few of the "sins" shown that offend some reenactors...

Re: Hose/Gaiters

Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 12:04 pm
by Dannolad
All I do know, is that I am not keen on the Nora Batty look.

My ignorance about the Civil War is what prompted me to join the SK, after going to a Battle Weekend and being asked who are they? and I did not know, I felt obliged to learn and do. But would like to get it right whilst I am kitting out, I know most clothing for early Regt's was mostly personal choice and until the NMA formed uniformity was more of an exception than a rule, but want to avoid the 'politics' of fashion too.

Re: Hose/Gaiters

Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:51 pm
by sally
To avoid the nora batty look make sure you get socks that are the right size for your leg, either knit your own or get someone like me to do you a pair to order, its when they arent scaled properly for your foot, calf and leg length that they fall down every 5 minutes. Well fitting socks and shoes are more comfortable as well and will last longer :D

Re: Hose/Gaiters

Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 2:33 pm
by Dannolad
I am currently using Scots Div pattern lovat green knee length plain hose which fit well. But a pair of above knee plain mid gray knitted hose would be great, what is your going rate please Sally?

Re: Hose/Gaiters

Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 2:37 pm
by sally
Dannolad wrote:I am currently using Scots Div pattern lovat green knee length plain hose which fit well. But a pair of above knee plain mid gray knitted hose would be great, what is your going rate please Sally?
£15 for made to measure pure wool stockings, link in my sig will take you to the shop if that is of any interest :D Can do pretty much any shade you like

Re: Hose/Gaiters

Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 2:45 pm
by Nigel
steve stanley wrote:If you want to go the NUG(Normally,usually,generally) route,just get knitted ones in the thickest wool you can comfortably wear.....If they get wet,change for the spare pair you should carry....If they get holed,darn them with your sewing kit............I'm not saying gaiter-ish things didn't exist...just no provenance for use by an ECW musketeer...............And many of us have spent years arguing against the 'There's one in the corner of this German painting ten years earlier,so OF COURSE they're alright' school...............

Steve

Actually Steve judging from customs receipts of the tiem whilst Knitted ones were around they were NOT in the majority cut cloth ones far outnumber all forms of knitted in export

Re: Hose/Gaiters

Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 3:45 pm
by Dathi
Nigel wrote:
steve stanley wrote:If you want to go the NUG(Normally,usually,generally) route,just get knitted ones in the thickest wool you can comfortably wear.....If they get wet,change for the spare pair you should carry....If they get holed,darn them with your sewing kit............I'm not saying gaiter-ish things didn't exist...just no provenance for use by an ECW musketeer...............And many of us have spent years arguing against the 'There's one in the corner of this German painting ten years earlier,so OF COURSE they're alright' school...............

Steve

Actually Steve judging from customs receipts of the tiem whilst Knitted ones were around they were NOT in the majority cut cloth ones far outnumber all forms of knitted in export

Judging from the contracts to supply soldiers from the late 16th and into the mid 17th century hose/stockings were always cut cloth, sometimes from kersey or worsted

Re: Hose/Gaiters

Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 5:48 pm
by steve stanley
IF cut cloth ones today were actually cut so they weren't quite so baggy,I'd quite agree...........Oh,and made long enough for non-dwarves........... :)

Re: Hose/Gaiters

Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:07 am
by Dathi
steve stanley wrote:IF cut cloth ones today were actually cut so they weren't quite so baggy,I'd quite agree...........Oh,and made long enough for non-dwarves........... :)

I think there's 3 issues here

1) material used to make the hose

2) Cut and fitting of the hose

3) Our perception of what's right in terms of fit

Re: Hose/Gaiters

Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 12:02 pm
by steve stanley
I think you're right..It's just none of the commercially availiable sewn hose seem to attain the fit shown in contemporary art......We were looking at a pair in the V&A last month which have laces on the lower side,presumably for tightening?

Re: Hose/Gaiters

Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:17 pm
by Dathi
I think the laces are to tighten the fit.

I can see a good, close, fit with linen, worsted or silk cloth cut hose. I just can't see kersey hose, made in large numbers in limited sizes, being anywhere near as close a fit

Re: Hose/Gaiters

Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:21 pm
by steve stanley
Another point which may affect the 'bagginess' is the general lack of proper garters to support hose..The fictional 'tunneled leg-tie' being predominant.......

Re: Hose/Gaiters

Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:20 pm
by Dathi
steve stanley wrote:Another point which may affect the 'bagginess' is the general lack of proper garters to support hose..The fictional 'tunneled leg-tie' being predominant.......

Too damm true, I've yet to see any breeches that show signs of being tied via ribbons threaded thro the knee.

Re: Hose/Gaiters

Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 3:27 pm
by Nigel
steve stanley wrote:IF cut cloth ones today were actually cut so they weren't quite so baggy,I'd quite agree...........Oh,and made long enough for non-dwarves........... :)
steve Debs does do 7 differnat sizes and can make em long if you want

Re: Hose/Gaiters

Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:59 pm
by steve stanley
Nigel wrote:
steve stanley wrote:IF cut cloth ones today were actually cut so they weren't quite so baggy,I'd quite agree...........Oh,and made long enough for non-dwarves........... :)
steve Debs does do 7 differnat sizes and can make em long if you want
May do that ...being rather long-legged :D

Re: Hose/Gaiters

Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:02 am
by Nigel
drop us a line chap and as wellas sizes they are in any particualr colour you want

Re: Hose/Gaiters

Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 2:22 pm
by IagotheHungry
I remember us debating a similar subject on my "breeches and hose" thread a wee while back.

Wasn't the upshot that most hose were of cut cloth, and the over hose were sometimes worn but not often and may have been worn in the ECW but may not?

Seems like every historical debate always ends in a maybe sometimes don't it? :p