Dutch West India Company Marine (c1690) picture.

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
Dave B
Post Knight
Posts: 1737
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2005 9:34 pm
Location: Cheshire
Contact:

Post by Dave B »

If I understand it correctle

A bit earlier and marines had general sailing duties, and were dressed and equiped just like regular sailors apart from in action.

A bit later and they were deliberately seperate from the sailors, probably because part of their duties involved 'policing' sailors protecting cargoes and preventing mutiny. they had no regular sailing duties, different equipment and thier own areas of the ship.

this is the bit in the middle
Find time in every day to look at your life and say; 'Well, it could be worse'

Kurt's uncle Bob.

User avatar
Andy R
Post Centurion
Posts: 826
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:45 am
Location: Farnham, Surrey
Contact:

Post by Andy R »

Dave B wrote:If I understand it correctle

A bit earlier and marines had general sailing duties, and were dressed and equiped just like regular sailors apart from in action.

A bit later and they were deliberately seperate from the sailors, probably because part of their duties involved 'policing' sailors protecting cargoes and preventing mutiny. they had no regular sailing duties, different equipment and thier own areas of the ship.

this is the bit in the middle


It depends on the army.

The Royal Marines always had a "ship duty" for lack of a better way of putting it, and other elements of the French Marines were attached to ships (and others were attached to the coast guard)

It;s a funny old period, as it was the start of European standing armies, and a lot of experimentation was going on
Young men have often been ruined through owning horses, or through backing them, but never through riding them: unless of course they break their necks, which, taken at a gallop, is a very good death to die

http://www.16ld.org

User avatar
steve stanley
Post Knight
Posts: 1122
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2005 6:07 pm
Location: Leicester

Post by steve stanley »

And just to confuse matters.....The British marines lost their Naval role in the 1680's beoming Prince George of Denmark's regiment of foot...From then on "true" marine units were raised for each War.....Also "regiments for Sea Service" designed for amphibious operations.....Wasn't until 1756 that a permanant marine force under Admiraly control was formed...So that is the true Birthdate of today's RM's....not 1664 when the Maritime reg. was formed as part of the Army.
Steve
"Give me a tent and a kettle
Snowshoes and axe and gun
Send me up in Grand River
Steering by star and sun".
- Labrador Trapper's Song

User avatar
Andy R
Post Centurion
Posts: 826
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:45 am
Location: Farnham, Surrey
Contact:

Post by Andy R »

And from the Marlburian Period to the WAS thay had the most audaciouse ticking(SP?) gaiters
Young men have often been ruined through owning horses, or through backing them, but never through riding them: unless of course they break their necks, which, taken at a gallop, is a very good death to die

http://www.16ld.org

User avatar
steve stanley
Post Knight
Posts: 1122
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2005 6:07 pm
Location: Leicester

Post by steve stanley »

Andy R wrote:And from the Marlburian Period to the WAS thay had the most audaciouse ticking(SP?) gaiters

And some very strange belly-boxes/pouches............
Steve
"Give me a tent and a kettle
Snowshoes and axe and gun
Send me up in Grand River
Steering by star and sun".
- Labrador Trapper's Song

Nigel
Post Knight
Posts: 1677
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 7:45 am
Location: Pontefract
Contact:

Post by Nigel »

another one if we are being picky SOCKS a pet ahte of mine as steve will tell you

Get something nicer please
There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

User avatar
Fox
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2652
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:27 pm
Location: Cheshire

Post by Fox »

Nigel wrote:another one if we are being picky SOCKS a pet ahte of mine as steve will tell you

Get something nicer please


Let's assume that you've accused me of wearing of socks (if I translate that back.).

I'm not.

Nigel
Post Knight
Posts: 1677
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 7:45 am
Location: Pontefract
Contact:

Post by Nigel »

Nope looks like nasty lycra type hsoe things

Knitted ones are the type you wnat for this date matey
There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

User avatar
Fox
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2652
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:27 pm
Location: Cheshire

Post by Fox »

Nigel wrote:Nope looks like nasty lycra type hsoe things

Knitted ones are the type you wnat for this date matey


I think you've been mislead by the quality of the picture.

Nigel
Post Knight
Posts: 1677
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 7:45 am
Location: Pontefract
Contact:

Post by Nigel »

so they re knitted nice well done that man
There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

User avatar
Fox
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2652
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:27 pm
Location: Cheshire

Post by Fox »

They are, in fact, my spare knitted cotton pair.

I actually plan to wear a knitted wool pair, but I had, just moments before the photo, engineered to stick my big fat finger through one of them. That crisis has now been resolved by some appropriate darning.

As point of order, any lycra socks would also have been knitted; but these are not they, not a single % of lycra in sight.

Nigel
Post Knight
Posts: 1677
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 7:45 am
Location: Pontefract
Contact:

Post by Nigel »

Ok Well done

Excellent first effort claim a beer
There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

User avatar
Fox
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2652
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:27 pm
Location: Cheshire

Post by Fox »

OK, anyone know a good source for bayonets?
Tod, fancy making a matching belt?


As an aside:

Intuatively it seems to me that [in re-enactment] it would be stupid to engage in hand to hand combat using a musket.

Firstly, how can you be absolutely certain that the weapon is "safe" before you start waving it around at someone at close range, and especially before you stick a knife in the end of the barrel.
Second, it's a relatively expensive piece of kit to be sticking on front of a sword or axe or similar that might cause some real damage.
Third, it can't be terribly safe to be firing a weapon that has been aggresively bashed about.

Since you lot do this sort of thing all the time, are my insticts correct?

Nigel
Post Knight
Posts: 1677
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 7:45 am
Location: Pontefract
Contact:

Post by Nigel »

Its done in ECW In my battlia it is this process


you fire show clear to your officer who then orders fall on

BUT we use the butt end as all good English men did

If you looka the manula for bayonet fighting bayonets are charged like apike and used en masse to drive the offending rabble from the premises not ala Sergeant Major Bourne

As to suppliers nope
There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

User avatar
Mark P.
Posts: 415
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 12:10 am
Location: Howden
Contact:

Post by Mark P. »

I think 2 J's might do a plug bayonet?
Pulteney's Regiment
'We're from the Government, we're here to help'

http://www.13thfoot.co.uk or http://www.facebook.com/LaceWars

'The next best thing to knowing something is knowing where to find it'

User avatar
Andy R
Post Centurion
Posts: 826
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:45 am
Location: Farnham, Surrey
Contact:

Post by Andy R »

As do Loyalist Armes

Ron Curley and Gary Bates sell their stuff.

See http://www.loyalistarms.freeservers.com/bayonetsscabbards.htm
(Scroll down past the socket bayonets)
Young men have often been ruined through owning horses, or through backing them, but never through riding them: unless of course they break their necks, which, taken at a gallop, is a very good death to die

http://www.16ld.org

User avatar
Phil the Grips
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2000
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2005 2:01 pm
Location: Auld Reekie- capital village o' Jockland
Contact:

Post by Phil the Grips »

A good book on plug bayonets-
http://www.naval-military-press.com/cat ... s/6485.htm

Battle Orders do one (bottom of page)
http://www.battleorders.co.uk/acatalog/ ... NIVES.html

Two Js have done them and there was another fella at TORM that had some very blunt ones (basically cut out blanks) for reenactment combat (next to Adolphus IIRC).
--Angels also carry weapons--
http://www.blackboarswordsmanship.co.uk/

User avatar
Andy R
Post Centurion
Posts: 826
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:45 am
Location: Farnham, Surrey
Contact:

Post by Andy R »

Phil the Grips wrote:A good book on plug bayonets-
http://www.naval-military-press.com/cat ... s/6485.htm

Battle Orders do one (bottom of page)
http://www.battleorders.co.uk/acatalog/ ... NIVES.html

Two Js have done them and there was another fella at TORM that had some very blunt ones (basically cut out blanks) for reenactment combat (next to Adolphus IIRC).


The Battle Orders one is nasty - no quilons. Be a bitch to get it out without them.

Vic James was making blunt re-enactment ones when the Sedgemore events were on a couple of years ago
Young men have often been ruined through owning horses, or through backing them, but never through riding them: unless of course they break their necks, which, taken at a gallop, is a very good death to die

http://www.16ld.org

User avatar
Phil the Grips
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2000
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2005 2:01 pm
Location: Auld Reekie- capital village o' Jockland
Contact:

Post by Phil the Grips »

Andy R wrote:The Battle Orders one is nasty - no quilons. Be a bitch to get it out without them.
I know- but can't have Fox with better kit than me ;)
--Angels also carry weapons--
http://www.blackboarswordsmanship.co.uk/

User avatar
Fox
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2652
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:27 pm
Location: Cheshire

Post by Fox »

Phil the Grips wrote:I know- but can't have Fox with better kit than me ;)


Then you will need to get a different job. :wink: :wink:

User avatar
Phil the Grips
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2000
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2005 2:01 pm
Location: Auld Reekie- capital village o' Jockland
Contact:

Post by Phil the Grips »

The key to being a gent is a) have a patron b) an excellent tailor c) a keen nose for untapped lines of credit, and then one does not need a good <shudder>job.

I have all three, as shall be seen at Ellesmere ;)
--Angels also carry weapons--
http://www.blackboarswordsmanship.co.uk/

User avatar
Fox
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2652
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:27 pm
Location: Cheshire

Post by Fox »

Phil the Grips wrote:The key to being a gent...


No, stop. You lost me right there.

User avatar
steve stanley
Post Knight
Posts: 1122
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2005 6:07 pm
Location: Leicester

Post by steve stanley »

Bayonet fighting has been done in Lace Wars & NFOE...Heavily rehearsed.'cos there's no such thing as a blunt bayonet...............
Steve
"Give me a tent and a kettle
Snowshoes and axe and gun
Send me up in Grand River
Steering by star and sun".
- Labrador Trapper's Song

User avatar
Phil the Grips
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2000
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2005 2:01 pm
Location: Auld Reekie- capital village o' Jockland
Contact:

Post by Phil the Grips »

Historically it was done with spring loaded training bayonets (like those joke knives you can get), a wooden rifle made to the length of the firearm plus bayonet, a buttoned point (think tennis ball stitched on) or, at a push in camp, with the sheath kept on- but that's C19th.

However the holy grail of the C18th WMA world is a bayonet fencing book of the period (a rumour of one persists...) but it seems that the natural vigour of the man was relied upon, along with verbal instruction from experienced NCOs.

I can't see any way to do freeplay reenactment bayonet combat unless wearing cuirassier harness and totenkopf/savoyard helm :)
--Angels also carry weapons--
http://www.blackboarswordsmanship.co.uk/

User avatar
Andy R
Post Centurion
Posts: 826
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:45 am
Location: Farnham, Surrey
Contact:

Post by Andy R »

I'm sure Roger Barry of thr Vikings showed me a early 20th century bayonet fencing manual showing steps the participents some years ago when we were neighbours.

Spring loaded bayonets as Phil mentions on special fencing rifles, and fencing rig were worn in the pictures.
Young men have often been ruined through owning horses, or through backing them, but never through riding them: unless of course they break their necks, which, taken at a gallop, is a very good death to die

http://www.16ld.org

User avatar
Lord High Everything Esle
Post Centurion
Posts: 652
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 8:43 pm
Location: Ilkley Moor Baa't t'at
Contact:

Post by Lord High Everything Esle »

It must have been made in Yorkshire - it's got such deep pockets.
Will/Dave, the Jolly Box Man and Barber Surgeon

"Physicians of all men are most happy; what good success soever they have, the world proclaimeth, and what faults they commit the earth coverest." Frances Quarles (1592-1644) Nicocles

User avatar
Dave B
Post Knight
Posts: 1737
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2005 9:34 pm
Location: Cheshire
Contact:

Post by Dave B »

Yup,

Goes well with the short arms.

Dave
Find time in every day to look at your life and say; 'Well, it could be worse'

Kurt's uncle Bob.

User avatar
Fox
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2652
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:27 pm
Location: Cheshire

Post by Fox »

Lord High Everything Esle wrote:It must have been made in Yorkshire - it's got such deep pockets.


That does seem to be the style of the day.

User avatar
Lord High Everything Esle
Post Centurion
Posts: 652
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 8:43 pm
Location: Ilkley Moor Baa't t'at
Contact:

Post by Lord High Everything Esle »

Fox wrote:
Lord High Everything Esle wrote:It must have been made in Yorkshire - it's got such deep pockets.


That does seem to be the style of the day.


Do you mean that all Englishmen were "tight" then and not just Yorkshiremen :lol:
Will/Dave, the Jolly Box Man and Barber Surgeon

"Physicians of all men are most happy; what good success soever they have, the world proclaimeth, and what faults they commit the earth coverest." Frances Quarles (1592-1644) Nicocles

Post Reply