ECW Infantry Buff Coat

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Dathi
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Re: ECW Infantry Buff Coat

Postby Dathi » Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:05 am

Chris T

There's a reference in the Manuscripts of the Right Honourable F.J.SAVILE FOLJAMBE on page 61 to a "bufierkin" listed in the arms and armour lost from the Foot band under the command of a Captain Wrothe from Essex. It's listed with one coat, 1 musket and a sword and dagger.

It's impossible to guess what this bufierkin was worn for, protection or as part of the clothing issued to the Trained Band men levied from Essex but it's the earlist reference I've seen.



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Re: ECW Infantry Buff Coat

Postby STEENIE » Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:06 am

Dathi wrote:Chris T

There's a reference in the Manuscripts of the Right Honourable F.J.SAVILE FOLJAMBE on page 61 to a "bufierkin" listed in the arms and armour lost from the Foot band under the command of a Captain Wrothe from Essex. It's listed with one coat, 1 musket and a sword and dagger.

It's impossible to guess what this bufierkin was worn for, protection or as part of the clothing issued to the Trained Band men levied from Essex but it's the earlist reference I've seen.


Dathi,

What I find of interest, all the way through this thread, there are example and reference, over and over to the Foote having leather jerkins (including true buffcoats) in one form or another. In the quote above, again it seems, this coat was lost from the Foot (mentioned as meaning from the Company not an individual?), not the Horse. Yet, some say, 100%, Foote didn't wear coats under their armour or indeed without their armour.

I believe the black and white people, over the years, have gained too much control on this subject. I can understand why. In the good ol' days, everyone seemed to be covered in poor quality split coats (won't say buff coats as that would be a travesty). Now, if a member of the Foote puts on a sleeveless buffcoat, he is regarded as the worst of Farbs. I think, now the days of mass split have gone, it is time to take a more balanced and reasoned view on the subject of the Infantry Buff Coat. Move away from the obviously wrong black and white approach to any subject and look to the educated grey of common sense and fact.


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Re: ECW Infantry Buff Coat

Postby Chris T » Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:23 am

Dathi: What was the date of that please?

Steenie: Quite agree. Some surviving items (eg the 'cross flap fronted' buffcoat in the NAM) would be, I would have thought, unsuitable for mounted use.



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Re: ECW Infantry Buff Coat

Postby steve stanley » Fri Mar 11, 2011 5:42 pm

I think.......They may well have been around for foot.....But not in complete uniformed regiments,and as that's what both big societies like......(How many regiments in civilian dress are there compared to the real thing...?),there's no room for individual impressions............


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Re: ECW Infantry Buff Coat

Postby Chris T » Sat Mar 12, 2011 4:58 pm

In part this is due to the continuation of the errors of the past, in part due to the fact that ununiformed units are often dismised as odds and ends rather than being recognised as such.
Personally I have spent many years de uniforming my unit: the only 'uniform' item is now a red coat, but with no requirements for standard cut , lining colour, buttons or even shade of red.



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Re: ECW Infantry Buff Coat

Postby steve stanley » Sun Mar 13, 2011 8:07 pm

I would still like to see a decent Trained Band unit in their nice civilian suits & old arms and equipment.......... :)


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Re: ECW Infantry Buff Coat

Postby Chris T » Sun Mar 13, 2011 10:18 pm

There are a whole lot of things we do not see enough of, and many others we see much too much of :-)



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Re: ECW Infantry Buff Coat

Postby steve stanley » Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:25 am

Chris T wrote:There are a whole lot of things we do not see enough of, and many others we see much too much of :-)


:D :D


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Re: ECW Infantry Buff Coat

Postby Dathi » Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:11 pm

Chris T wrote:Dathi: What was the date of that please?

Steenie: Quite agree. Some surviving items (eg the 'cross flap fronted' buffcoat in the NAM) would be, I would have thought, unsuitable for mounted use.



Sorry, thought I put that in ! It's post Tilbury in 1588 and deals with masses of letters and the paperwork that formed the armies that were raised to repal the expected invasion.

I



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Re: ECW Infantry Buff Coat

Postby John Waller » Thu Mar 17, 2011 9:43 am

steve stanley wrote:I would still like to see a decent Trained Band unit in their nice civilian suits & old arms and equipment.......... :)


Agreed. Oh wherefore art thou Sayes?


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Re: ECW Infantry Buff Coat

Postby STEENIE » Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:38 pm

As the ex CO of Sayes a long time ago, don't ask me lol.


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Re:

Postby nick19thind » Wed Mar 23, 2011 3:35 pm

Merlon. wrote:Can one ask how the sergeant would afford to buy a £1 buffcoat, that’s twenty days gross pay?
Sergeants and above were responsible for buying their own clothes and equipment. So they definitely look different from the soldiers, thorny problem would then be, what form would the cheaper buffs take?
Shorter skirts, or effectively, a buff doublet.
Stuff sleeves or unsleeved completely
Then you get on to the issue of me_too_itis, if he has one I want one too. This is more likely to be the reason they are frowned upon in the major societies, avoids the entire issue of trying to police the blasted issue

He may not have had to. After the battle it would have been common practise to strip the dead. Buff-coats were highly prized by all sections of society both during and after the war for their durability
http://books.google.com/books?id=1_Ekwa ... at&f=false


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Re: ECW Infantry Buff Coat

Postby steve stanley » Wed Mar 23, 2011 3:53 pm

But in most cases,captured/looted kit is no basis for an impression.....(Ok for Partisan types,I guess......)..."I took it off a dead body" has been the excuse for more inappropriate kit..............


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Re: ECW Infantry Buff Coat

Postby Dathi » Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:12 pm

Don't forget that 1642 is the year that a Sargeant in Essex's army wrote to friends in London that he had had a new soldiers suit made for him with a "little silver and gold lace"

A Sargeant in the 17th Century is mostly certainly not the same as in the 18th, 19th or 20th Century, his status is much higher than that granted to a SNCO now or post 1660.


Now. I've been doing some thinking and I had an idea or two. Vast chunks of the 80 years war in the Low Countries and the various wars in Ireland up to the early 1600's were spent in small scale skirmishing, raiding, and "borrowing" . Full, formal battles were rare, whilst in the Low Countries a lot of the time was spent watching sieges go stale.

We have some evidence that leather was increasingly used as a base on which to secure armour, and that the common soldiers very frequently avoided armour like a dodgy rash.

Given that mix I suspect that lighter armourer was prefered for day to day wear and use, saving the heavy stuff for big battles. Whiuch meant that the leather under garment securing armour came to be used on it's own, growing in size to cover rather more of the body.



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Re: ECW Infantry Buff Coat

Postby STEENIE » Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:17 am

The letters of Sgt Nehemia Wharton's letters are great. I do love the vignette of them looting a local 'house' then getting jumped as they came back into Northampton by the cavalry and losing the lot. :)


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Re: ECW Infantry Buff Coat

Postby Chris T » Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:35 pm

Rather gives the lie to the "looting forbidden" school! :D (So is driving over 70mph, just for a comparison)



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Re: ECW Infantry Buff Coat

Postby Merlon. » Fri Mar 25, 2011 5:14 am

Chris T wrote:Rather gives the lie to the "looting forbidden" school! :D (So is driving over 70mph, just for a comparison)

As you say just because an action is forbidden does not mean that action will not occur.
The order and day books of the county committees and military commanders are littered with court martials of people caught looting and other misdemeanours. The outcome of the trials are predictably draconian.



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Re: ECW Infantry Buff Coat

Postby STEENIE » Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:48 am

I maligned Nehemiah Wharton a little (this time). I should really have given my attention to the Blue Coats. Could the Blue Coats be Lord Saye and Sele's Blew Regiment of Foote, which had a similar reputation when the army got into Oxford? It is interesting to note, that Wharton used the excuse of getting his goods back to take anything he wanted from the troops coming back into Northampton. As good enough excuse as any :roll:

Northampton, 13 September 1642

Certain gentlemen of the country informed me that Justice Edmonds, a man of good conversation, was plundered by the base blue coats and bereaved of his very beads, whereupon I immediately divided my men into three squadrons, surrounded them, and forced them to bring their pillage upon their own backs unto the house again: for which service I was welcomed with the best varieties in the house, and had given me a scarlet coat lined with plush, and several excellent books in folio of my own choosing; but returning, a troop of horse met me, pillage me of all, and robbed me of my very sword, for which cause I told them I would either have my sword or die in the field, commanded my men to charge with bullet, and by divisions to fire upon them, which made them with shame return my sword, and it being towards night I returned to Northampton, threatening revenge upon the base troopers. This night and the day following our company by lot watched the south gate, where I searched every horseman of that troop to the skin, took from them a fat buck, a venison pasty ready baked, but lost my own goods.


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Re: ECW Infantry Buff Coat

Postby Dathi » Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:11 pm

Just had a quick look through my collection of Dutch Schutterji pictures and so far the earlist dated pictures showing a buffcoat is 1603, with 2 or 3 men wearing buffcoats over clothing.



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Re: ECW Infantry Buff Coat

Postby Dathi » Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:32 am

Found something interesting by chance in Calendar of State Papers Domestic: Elizabeth, 1595-97 on page 135 from November 1595. I'll quote in full

"Computation [by Sir H. Cock] that farmerly the cost of furnishing a caliver, &c. was 27s.; 20s. 6d. for a bow; total, 47s. 6d.; 36s. for a corslet, &c., and 34s. for a musket, all of which have since risen in price; thus furnishing a corslet can be done for 11s. 6d. less than a caliver and long bow, and a musket for 13s. 6d. less, besides jerkins for the bowmen. With note that in the first band sent out of that shire to the Low Countries, ten years ago, under conduct of Capt. Walton, we sent several archers, whom we provided with buff jerkins at 22s. 6d. apiece; that the present high price of armour is very burdensome to the country people; and if, by your means, some good order could be taken therein, the country would be grateful."



Now Sir Henry Cock is talking about the weapons rated for the Trained Band in Hertfordshire and has produced a calculation to prove his point. Cock is claiming that in 1585 a band levied for service in the Low countries including some archers provided with buff jerkins costing 22s 6d a piece. A corslet armoured foot soldier would now cost 36s to fully arm. A corslet would cost some 23s 6d in 1585 so this buff jerkin was either very pretty, or very substantial........

The Coat of plates supplied to Lancashire Billman and archers in the early 1580s was costing 13s 4d....

A levy of 50 archers from Lancashire in 1567 lists the kit these men were to have, including is a "....jerkine of a stagg or bull skynne.."

buckskyne gerkines were provided for Lancashire archers in 1584 at the cheaper price of 13s



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Re: ECW Infantry Buff Coat

Postby Chris T » Thu Dec 22, 2011 11:55 am

Very interesting sources: certainly these would seem liable to be protective items given the context and cost.

Also most interesting as they relate to the aquisition and issue for troops on mass...



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Re: ECW Infantry Buff Coat

Postby Foxe » Fri Dec 23, 2011 1:07 am

Buff "armour" in 1565

“Item, three or foure complete harnesses that wil abide the shot of a handgun with 10. or 12. targets of steele, being good.
Item, ten or twelue good shirts of male being very good or else none, that may abide the shot of an arrow, and two buffe ierkins.”
(The thirde voyage into Persia, begun in the yeere 1565, in Hakluyt, Principal Navigations, 1600)

The durable quality of buff recognised in 1599

“Kate being pleasde, wisht that her pleasure coulde,
Indure as long as a buffe ierkin would.
Content thee Kate, although thy pleasure wasteth,
Thy pleasures place like a buffe ierkin lasteth:
For no buffe ierkin hath bin oftner worne,
Nor hath more scrapings or more dressings born.”
(Sir John Davies, 1599)

Knee-length buff coats, 1608

“These three Gallants that came to the tents, armed with coats of Buffe downe to the knees, their Rapiers and Pistols by their sides, demaunded for the English Captaine”
(Sir William Hawkins describing Portuguese soldiers in 1608: Purchas Pilgrimes vol. 1, 1625)

Buff jerkins as alternative to plate for infantry, 1594

“And those Halbarders I would haue them called extraordinarie because they are not for the squadron; And those I would haue to be armed only with burgonets with collers, verie light Cuirasses and backes, and without any tasses, and in stead of pouldrons; vambrases, and gauntlets, the sleeues of their dou+blets I meane within the fustian striped with certen narrow stripes of serecloth, or of maile, to defend the Cutt of a sword, and if that some of those extraordinarie battleaxes, or halbarders, were armed but only with burgonets and with short skirted Ierkins of buffe, with a double buffe vpon their brests, and the sleeues of their dou blets with stripes of maile or serecloth as aforesaid, and their swordes and daggers worne after th same sort, as the piquers before mentioned, I thinke it allowable:”
(Sir John Smythe, Certen instructions, obseruations and orders militarie, 1594)

Buff jerkins as economical alternative to plate

“And therefore in time of warre, such as deuote themselues to follow the profession of Armes (by Sea or by Land) ought to couet nothing more then to bee well armed, for as much as it is the second meanes, next Gods protection, for preseruing and prolonging many mens lines. Wherin the Spanish nation deserueth commendation aboue others, euery one from the highest to the lowest, putting their greatest care in prouiding faire and good Armes. Hee which cannot come to the price of a Corslet, will haue a coate of Mayle, a Iacket, at least, a Buffe-ierkin, or a priuie Coate; And hardly will they bee found without it, albeit they liue, and serue (for the most part) in extreame hot Countries. “
(Purchas Pilgrimes, vol. 4, 1625)

Buff coats recommended for pikemen in England in 1642

“'tis good, as to have weapons so qualified, so also is it as convenient to have them light and portable: 'tis not to be expected, that a Soldier can fight stoutly upon the suddaine, whenas by long marches and hot weather he is tired under his Armes: Soldiers should take a pleasure in beareing them, but they should not be burthened under them: Hereupon 'tis thought that Buffe-coats came so much in request, because they are so easie and comely, and (if good) as fit for defence as common Corslets”

and

“And what more, there is not one private Soldier of twenty shall by his utmost strength and skill together runne through a common Corslet, nay, not through a Buffe-coat which is good, to wound mortally; and what wisedome or policy is it to have so many standing men in Armes, which are not able to kill the Invaders: Further, hath it not been seene that three or foure good resolute Soldiers with their swords and Buffe-coats only have cut off ten or twelve Pike-heads, and come off safe without wounds, and purchased to themselves honor and reward?”
(Donald Lupton, A warre-like treatise of the pike, 1642)

Provincial Trained Band officers in buff coats

“The Lieutenants were armed with Head-pieces Plumed, faire and large gilt Partizans, Buffe Coats, Gorgets, with rich embroydered Belts and Swords, with Pistols “
(Great Yarmouths exercise In a very compleat and martiall manner performed by their artillery men, upon the twenty second of May last, to the great commendations and applause of the whole town, according to the modern discipline of this our age. 1638)

Looting buff coats from vanquished enemy

On Monday the 6 of Aprill, the enemy did fall downe with his Shipping below the Towne, where they landed their bag and baggage, and the sicke men with their Pee es and Church-men. At Eleveen a clocke the same day there went out some 300. soldiers vnder the command of Captaine Maior Kife, and Captaine Hellman , at which time we had taken from vs one English man, and their was killed one Dutch-man and a Scotch-man wounded, they were not out one houre but they came in againe, with many buffe coates, and gilt Rapiers and Ponyards, with the slaughter of many cheife commanders and soldiers.”
(A plaine and true relation, of the going forth of a Holland fleete the eleuenth of Nouember 1623, to the coast of Brasile)

and

“wee tooke Sir Edward Mosley Baronet, one Colonell, one Sergeant Major, eleven Captaines, 3. of them Cheshire men, Captaine Iohn Hurleston, Cap: Massie of Cottington, and Cap: Starkie, wee tooke 3. Colours from their Troops. Sir Thomas Astons being one, and about 500. more, many of them Commanders, and its probable neere as many are fled to their Houses, never to returne to that partie againe, we have taken their Ordinance and much powder, the Souldiers tooke much spoyle from the prisoners, abundance of Money, for they had converted their plundered ware into Coyne, a multitude of Musquets, Buffe Coates, Scarfes, Swords, Satin Doublets &c.”
(Cheshires successe, since their pious and truly valiant collonell Sr. William Brereton Barronet, came to their rescue Set forth in 4. chapters, 1643)


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Re: ECW Infantry Buff Coat

Postby Dathi » Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:23 pm

Foxe

That Smythe quote interests me, I need to find a copy of his book to read but its a sod to find a repro.



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Re: ECW Infantry Buff Coat

Postby Foxe » Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:03 pm

PM'd you.


...and further this Informant saith not.

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Re: ECW Infantry Buff Coat

Postby Mark Griffin » Mon Jan 02, 2012 2:15 pm

Can i just say, as a non civil war person (avoid it like the plague usually) what a great thread this is. Well mannered and full of useful info. Keep it up.

I'm off to shave a reindeer hide I have as the fur is falling out but couldn't think what to do with the skin...nice little leather sleeveless jerkin thing methinks.

BTW I took a pattern off the MoL one a while back if anyone is interested. I dated it to about 1610 comparing it with piccies. When the workshop is finished and I've unpacked (2.5 years and counting) I'll find the card shapes no doubt.....


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Re: ECW Infantry Buff Coat

Postby Mark Griffin » Mon Jan 02, 2012 2:24 pm

Just found this in my pic collection

I have a few more with different details, if anyone wants them email me and I'll send over. One in particular shows the seam where the body meets the neck with the impressive thickness of the leather plus the worked buttons.

But he is the commander of the army of course.....
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Re: ECW Infantry Buff Coat

Postby Tod » Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:19 pm

Chris T wrote:I believe that is the one illustrated in Waterers 'Leather and the Warrior'.

It is a nice item, but I do not know how the dating was arrived at (except maybe in an Armada exibition 1580 -1590 was seen as suitable :-))......it could easily be 1620s or even later as well.

If its the one I'm thinking of with the slashing/pinking it was in the archive in Northampton Museum along with a buff coat they had. I took pictures about 15 years ago - pre digital. The museum is meant to be moving to Abington Park this year.



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Re: ECW Infantry Buff Coat

Postby Chris T » Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:04 pm

The one I am talking about was not slashed /pinked. It was a solid buffcoat type garment, but styled as a fashionable jerkin, narrow fit to the body, a number of small tabs, very pointed front.



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Re: ECW Infantry Buff Coat

Postby John Waller » Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:42 pm

Mark Griffin wrote:Just found this in my pic collection

I have a few more with different details, if anyone wants them email me and I'll send over. One in particular shows the seam where the body meets the neck with the impressive thickness of the leather plus the worked buttons.

But he is the commander of the army of course.....


That's the one at Leeds Castle, right?


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Re: ECW Infantry Buff Coat

Postby Mark Griffin » Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:02 pm

yes


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